[BCrosby]

In 1932 the Open was held at Princes' which played to 7060 yards.

In 1932 Craig Wood, one of the longest players of the era, won a long drive contest averaging 247 yards over three drives. (His longest was 255.)

In 1932 the swing speed of Jim Reynolds, the "national driving champion" (whatever that means), was measured on a new GE machine at 125 mph.

These facts led to several connected thoughts:

First, if you want to hold an Open today that plays as long as the Open at Princes' in 1932, it would have to play at about 8500 yards. And that's being conservative.

Second, courses today at 7600 yards for major tournaments are not long in relative terms. They are in fact short, historically.

Third, not many players today - even the longest - have clubhead speeds exceeding 125 mph. However stronger, more limber, fitter, bigger and taller players may be in 2006, there were apparently a number of players in 1932 who could swing the cluhead as fast as the longest players today.

Fourth, all this compels the conclusion that the enormous gains in distance since 1932 (and "enormous" understates things) have mostly to do with changes in technology and very little to do with physical fitness.

Bob

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bob,
As startling as the situation today appears to some, the gain averages out to 4.1 feet per year.  a lot of that increase has come about over the past 13 years and compressing those gains into a short period of time makes them look even more ominous.    

[Jim Nugent]

Bob, I think I agree with your final conclusion about technology.  

Was curious about how long Prince's played to.  The source I found online -- Golf Illustrated from 1932 -- put the distance at slightly under 7000 yards.  Here is what it says:

"Golf Illustrated
June 17th 1932

Once again America takes possession of the British Open Championship Cup. We tender our heartiest congratulations to the winner, Gene Sarazen. To say that he deserved to win is only to put it mildly. From the very first round he looked a winner, and each succeeding round showed that he was the finest player in the field. Record after record Sarazen smashed, and his winning aggregate of 283 constitutes a new record total for the championship. This surpasses Mr. Bobby Jones's previous record total of 285, established in 1927 at St. Andrews, by two strokes. It means that this sturdy little Italian-born golfer accomplished the seventy-two holes in an average of five under fours over the longest championship course in this country. Prince's measures just under 7.000 yards. Admittedly, the weather was simply ideal throughout the week for low scoring, and the course was in perfect condition, nevertheless, Sarazen's achievement was truly remarkable."

A few questions.  Can't links courses play a lot shorter, if the weather is benign?  (Which it apparently was.)  Also, wasn't Prince's uniquely long for that time?  My impression is that most championship courses of that time played in the 6500 yard neighborhood.  e.g. when St. Louis CC held the U.S. Open in 1947, it played around that distance.    

Another interesting tid-bit uncovered looking this up: Sarazen's victory was partly attributed to the new club he invented and unveiled at the 1932 Open:  the sand wedge.  

[Tony_Muldoon]

This shows 6800 yards and a par of 74.  I'll try and make it larger but email me with hints if it doesn't happen. (I will get my daughter to re scan this larger tonight.)

I've also got a book that quotes one of the original architects Lucas, referring to 7200 yards and a par of 69!  He appears to be writing about the Open and he adds the course was firm and dry and the wind was largely absent.

I posted this on a different thread last night in response to a question from Bob, now 10 hours later it's on page 3!! Are you reading this Tom H?

[Sean_A]

Tony

I tried to have a good look at your map, but it is too small to read.  Sorry.

Ciao

Sean

[T_MacWood]

Princes today and the Princes of 1932 are two different golf courses.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

In differrent locations or different design iterations on the same ground?

[Sean_A]

Wayne

Same ground.  Though the dunes are probably a bit compressed due to the military in WWII.  Also, because there are now 27 holes, 18 on original site and 9 more at furthest end of property, the clubhouse has been shifted away from St. Georges property to the nearly the other side of the property.  

It is difficult to tell if any of the original 18 holes were on what is now the Himalaya course.  There are a few holes right along the sea here.  

There is a cracking little par 5 along the inland side of the property.  It is #3 on the Dunes 9.  It is a real elephant's graveyard.  I seem to recall reading somewhere that this humpty bumptiness prevailed through much of the original course.

Ciao

Sean

[Tony_Muldoon]

I'll sort out the sizes tonight, but upto 17 of the original greens may have been used.  The two drawings are 180 degrees different.

[T_MacWood]

The first hole of the Himalaya course matches pretty close to the seventh of the old course...other than that the holes are completely different. The new 27-hole course lays a bit closer to the sea as well.

[BCrosby]

I got my Prince's yardage from a February '32 GI. Sounds like there were different distances given at different times, from 7400 to 6900+.

We have no way of knowing which yardage is correct.

We do know is that Prince's at about 7000 yards was a long course. But not crazy long. It was an acceptable test for the best players in the world in 1932.

The point is that to set up "long" venue for a major tournament today - to play to the same length as Prince's did in 1932 - it must be about 8500 yards, give or take.

The flip side is that all the chest thumping about 7600 yard courses today is silly. Such courses play to about the same distance today as a 6500 yard course for world class players in1932. Which is to say that a 7600 yard course today is not long.

In relative historical terms it is short.

Bob

 

[T_MacWood]

Bob
The yardage given (in The Times) on the eve of the tournament was 6890 yards, although they also claimed the course could be stretched to just under 7000 yards. Darwin predicted the scores would be lower than one would have thought based on the yardage, especially if the weather was serene. The scores in the spring tournaments at Princes had been surprisingly low. The pros commented that it had been a long time since an Open venue was 'galloping all the way', and that the pace had 'grown hotter' since then.

[A_Clay_Man]

It's a damn good thing distance isn't the only variable in golf.
And it's also a very good thing world class players don't play at a majority of the venues.

According to Bob, "The Institute" is too short.  

I wonder what the stats were in 1832, 1732 1632?

[Jim Nugent]

Tony Muldoon made a post on the other thread about Prince's, that shows why its seemingly long distance may be a bit misleading.  

The scorecard shows 5 par fives, and only 3 par threes.  That adds 300 or so yards to the course length, compared to courses that have only 4 par 5's.  Compared to courses with 3 or 2 par 5's, the difference could amount to 500 or 600 yards.  

I think that is important because pro's eat up par 5's, and probably especially ate up those.  4 of them were 460 yards or less.  Even in 1932, I would think that puts them on the real short side.

Sounds to me like Prince's may have played more like most 6300-to-6500 yard courses.  Which probably translates to 7500 to 8000 yards today.      

[RSLivingston_III]

If you want to know about distances, check out some plans and look at how long the holes are. The "championship" course designs in the US in that era typically have a number of par 4's over 430 yards, up to 470. The Par 3 lengths have been discussed before, but many of the architects     seem to have a 230+ hole in their designs. Check Stanley Thompson's chart for recommended distances and see how long the holes go.
Also, they were intent in also having a number of Drive-and-a-pitch par fours. A selction of those would really bring down the total yardage.
Another case, look at Fresh Meadow during the Open.

[Jeff Goldman]

For the 1928 U.S. Open, Olympia Fields' North Course measured 6756.  The second hole was 455, the ninth 458, and the 10th and 14th both 433 on the card, all par-4s.  Distance was softened by the fact that the 18th played as a 490 yard par-5 (in 2003 it was 495 par-4).

The par-3 8th hole was 220, slightly uphill.

Jeff Goldman

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