RTJ, Jr. vs. Minimalism

[Willie_Dow]

Played a course in Jupiter this week which was on the top 100 some years ago, and I have a hard time remembering any hole.  
Everything was the same !  Hole after hole.

Talk about "minimalism" !

[William King]

Jr.'s course for the University of Wisconsin "University Ridge"  is a very fine course in a natural, fairly hilly setting in the moraine area of SW Wisconsin.  Surely me moved dirt for the bunkering and green sites and some mounding to frame some of the holes, but for the most part the routing takes advantage of what the terrain had to offer.  

I agree 100% Don, I find this course along with the Grand National courses to be both interesting and enjoyable.

[PCCraig]

While I do enjoy "minimalist" courses more than others, IE C&C and Mr. Doak's designs. I feel like sometimes on this board everyone is a little close-minded to a whole other side of GCA.

I've actually played a few of RTJ's courses in the midwest...

1)Thunderhawk at the WI/IL border is a good golf course built on forest preserve land, with no homes, just trees/meadows in your site. A couple goofy holes, but on the whole very good. (and it's only about $40 weekday mornings before 9)

2)Univ. of Wisconsin is my least favorite course of his, It probably wasn't the best site to work with, it's basically long and big/hard greens.

3) Prarie View in Carmel, IN is I think the 3rd best golf course I've played in Indiana, behind Crooked Stick and Wolf Run. Same kind of site as Thunderhawk, but with very "minimalist" features, and some great bunkering.

4) I think its called "The Ranch" or something of that nature in Keystone, Colorado. I played there in the early spring, but even then I didnt think it was too bad, its squeezed in spots by homes, but considering the location it was hardly lack-luster.

All three are fairly different courses, with 4 different feels, maybe what RTJ Jr. has is an open mind and a willingness to experiment.

The funny thing is when you look at Mr. Doak's course at Texas Tech, with all of the earth he moved there/heavy design, looks very RTJ-esqe.

If my memory serves me correctly, Tom Doak reviewed the Keystone course in the confidential guide. And maybe gave it like a 4/5...not positive though.

  Thanks...


p.s.-RTJ Jr. actually has a good book out on archetecture, while basic at times, he does give some helpful hints on what many GCA's put into the course and how to manuver yourself around it all.

[David_Elvins]

I don't think there is much wrong with what RTJjr said.  To some people minimilist architecture can be boring.  Even on here there are a number of people who "don't get" a "minimalist" course on a not great site such as Hidden Creek or Cuscowilla.

The difference is design style between RTJjr and Doak (for example) is largely stylistic.  THe RTJjr courses I have played have all had interesting, well contoured green complexes, a good mix of long and short holes of each par, good strategic bunkers, good looking bunkers that offer little strategy, good variety and original concepts.  Just like the Doak courses I have played.  

[Norbert P]

  I'm looking forward to Playing Chambers Creek.  I hear the drainage, drainage, drainage will be excellent.

  Seriously, from the aerials and reports I've seen and read, this is some fairly good land to work with.  I hope it's as great as everyone involved says it is. And I hope no one here hopes for its waylay by snobbish critics of the GCA domain.

  I have only played one RTJ Jr. course, Great Blue at Heron Lakes, in Portland, Oregon. It is one of the finest munies I've played (Riverdale Dunes! in Denver)and it does have its shining moments but it also drums along with a flacid drumbeat of repetitive water carries in the last four holes (18 fairways slopes to slough) that any high handicapper might be put off by.   That said, he used the land volume fully to its potential lengths and defenses, even if the bunkering can be seemingly downloaded from a marshmallow website.

If we crucify him for speaking his mind, we are merely insulating our own prejudices.

"...
He sang about three or four numbers
But we'd heard it all before.
The parables they were merciless,
No girls were moving on the floor.

The crowd was getting restless
And the tables overturned,
There were no minor miracles,
And false prophets, they were burned.

Well, maybe he was Jesus
But his head could have used a comb,
And before he sang his last note
We boys had all gone home. Oh yeah.

When Jesus came to play . . .

IA  Jethro something

[Sean_A]

Maybe in trying to decide on what "minimalism" is in golf course architecture one should first decide what the "medium" is in golf course architecture.

Behr said it pretty well in my opinion.

The medium of a painter is his paint.

So what's the medium of a golf course architect?

Tom P.

So what did Behr say what the medium of the acrhitect is?  I hope it wasn't 1000 word ramble which boils down to land!  I wonder how architects think about this.  There must sometimes be a pull between land and a vision of what the land could be with a bit of engineering.  

This site has yet to come up with a proper working definition for "minamalism" and this to a large degree negates any descriptive value the term may have.  The more I think about it the more I would define minalmalism as more toward not tweaking the land to make the course better.  Accepting what is given and trying to make the most of it on a reasonable budget (whatever that is!).  

I say this because nearly all architects could be considered minamalist if creating the "illusion" of minalmalism because nearly all archies claim to produce natural effects which blend in with the surrounds.  I have been shown loads of photos on this site of "natural" architecture from the good and the great.  Very rarely do I agree with that conclusion.  Usually it is the bunkering which puts me off agreeing.  Sometimes it is built up fairways, tees and greens.  Sometimes it is water features.  

Some would say my version of a minalmalist course does sound boring.  I would agree if the land is boring.  So a good minalmalist course is bound to be fairly rare.  

Ciao

Sean

[Tim Gavrich]

I'd say, from my recollection, that Sugarloaf represents a pretty good use of a difficult site to make an interesting golf course.  Sure, it might be nearly impossible, but it's sure pretty.

11 is a very good par 3 over the river.