American designs in Ireland

[Mark Brown]

How good, or bad are The K Club and Mount Juliet? Are they any different than what Palmer and Nicklaus have done in the States?

[michael_j_fay]

Mount Juliet is a very nice parkland course on a very nice site.

The K Club is a Palmer Course on a very nice site.

[John Goodman]

I've only played the K Club (for the questionable purpose of enhancing my TV viewing knowledge for the Ryder cup).  It was targetish, green, water in play, very pretty really, but with very few holes that made one think or called forth options.  It was fine and not objectionable for one with catholic tastes in golf courses, but a near-total waste of time when you consider what you COULD be playing within thirty minutes or so.  We did have a good time making sport of one of our buddies who hurled not far from the course entrance as a result of excessive Bushmills at a local wedding reception we crashed the night before in Adare.

[Tom_Doak]

When we were looking at the Old Head years ago, an Irish expert told me that American designers had utterly failed in Ireland because they misunderstood the drainage issues.

I would love to have the chance to prove him wrong someday.

[David_Tepper]

Tom D. -

If I may ask, what is the status of your project in southwest Ireland (near Castlegregory?) these days?

DT

[peter_p]

Tom,
Then shouldn't they be failures over here too, for not understanding the drainage issues.Based on my home course, designed by someone who traveled yearly to Ireland, this is a truism.

[Tom_Doak]

Peter:

My understanding is that the soils on inland courses in Ireland are particularly touchy, and just didn't respond well at all to the usual American practice of running equipment over every square inch of the property many times.  Thus the typical American drainage system didn't work too well, either.  It's easy to understand how that would happen; all of us that have built a lot of courses tend to think we know better than the local "experts", but sometimes we're wrong.

David:

As I mentioned here a week or so ago, the Castlegregory project has not progressed.  It's not completely dead in the water -- as long as that site exists I think there will be someone dreaming about a course there, and so far it hasn't progressed far enough in the permitting process to get a realistic sense of its chances.  In fact someone called me about it this afternoon.  But the best case scenario is that it's still a year or two away from being approved.

[Robert Thompson]

How good, or bad are The K Club and Mount Juliet? Are they any different than what Palmer and Nicklaus have done in the States?

Mark: I don't know about Juliet, but the K Club was one of the biggest misses I've seen. Great piece of land, marginal golf course. The bunkering was awful. Not a lot to recommend in my mind.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I can't comment on the drainage issues etc.  Mt. Juliet, the K Club and other American parkland style golf courses are disappointing to Americans who go to Ireland to play "Irish" courses.  I have played them because I wanted to see what they are like.  They could be in most any state USA.  Sometimes what we forget is that the Irish might like to see what American courses are like.  They also may not like them but they do add a different flavor to golf in Ireland.

[Brian Phillips]

I can't comment on the drainage issues etc.  Mt. Juliet, the K Club and other American parkland style golf courses are disappointing to Americans who go to Ireland to play "Irish" courses.  I have played them because I wanted to see what they are like.  They could be in most any state USA.  Sometimes what we forget is that the Irish might like to see what American courses are like.  They also may not like them but they do add a different flavor to golf in Ireland.

What many forget is that these courses are not really played by the 'normal' Irish golfer, well maybe once or twice in their lifetime but no more.

They are mainly played by tourists.  I am always stunned when I here Norwegians going over to Ireland and they have never heard of Lahinch or Ballybunion but cannot wait to play the 'K'Club...

[ForkaB]

I am always stunned when I here Norwegians going over to Ireland and they have never heard of Lahinch or Ballybunion but cannot wait to play the 'K'Club...

Brian

Many French chefs are stunned to hear that tourists will order Quenelles de Brochet (minced pike dumplings) rather than Ortolans (small birds which are baked--feathers, beaks, feet, guts and all--and then eaten whole).

To each his (or her) own.....

[Jack_Marr]

I can't comment on the drainage issues etc.  Mt. Juliet, the K Club and other American parkland style golf courses are disappointing to Americans who go to Ireland to play "Irish" courses.  I have played them because I wanted to see what they are like.  They could be in most any state USA.  Sometimes what we forget is that the Irish might like to see what American courses are like.  They also may not like them but they do add a different flavor to golf in Ireland.

Maybe it's because you have lots of these types of courses, but I know nobody here who dislikes Mt. Juliet. I know a few who aren't keene on the K Club, though. I have walked it lots of times and think it's a good course. The new course at the K Club is very good, in my opinion, fake rocks and all.

Anyway, 90 percent of the golf played here by natives is not on these courses, but probably 90 percent of the golf played by tourists here is played on these courses.

[Jonathan Cummings]

M. Fay - you should be a politician!  I agree with your post.  K-Club reminds me, in places, of a Florida golf course - not the reason I go to Ireland.

Adare, Dromoland, Juliet are all worth playing (juliet more than once) but K-Club should not be seen at the expense of seeing almost any other Ireland course.

JC

[Jonathan Davison]

What would an American expect of a typical Irish inland or parkland course?

[Mark Brown]

I don't go there to play inland Courses.

[Jack_Marr]

What would an American expect of a typical Irish inland or parkland course?

I would say most older golf clubs are "simple" parkland courses that have matured beautifully over the years. There are some lovely ones like the Grange, Hermitage, Tramore, Mullingar, Carlow, ...

Greens are usually quite simple and small. The fairways are usually defined by the rough, bunkers and trees, rather than any significant shaping...

This kind of thing

[Jonathan Davison]

Thanks Jack
I personally would not know many traditional inland courses in Ireland - I have visited Tramore and would like to visit Carlow and Mullingar.
How many inland courses would be designed by the likes of Colt, Mackenzie, Braid and Simpson? Would they be worth a visit?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Johnny, don't forget the modest Eddie Hackett who very often made silk purses out of sow's ears at rock bottom prices.

[Jonathan Davison]

Mark
Sorry, I always relate Eddie Hackett to wonderful links courses?

[Jack_Marr]

Thanks Jack
I personally would not no many traditional inland courses in Ireland - I have visited Tramore and would like to visit Carlow and Mullingar.
How many inland courses would be designed by the likes of Colt, Mackenzie, Braid and Simpson? Would they be worth a visit?

Jonny

I don't know, to be honest. Mackenzie was involved in Little Island, and Mullingar was designed by James Braid. Colt designed Dun Laoghaire, which is being turned into a housing estate.

Hackett designed or was involved in many many many courses in Ireland. Some are not notable at all, as they were built with zero budget on uninteresting land.

Here's something about Mackenzie in Ireland - http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2004/04/06/story418098291.asp

[Dan Herrmann]

To me, the K Club was boring.  Didn't play it - was in the gallery for the European Open several years ago.

Palmer did way better on Bay Hill.  To me, the K Club reminded me of his "The Carolina" down in the NC Sandhills - pleasant, but nothing special.