Why doesn't anyone build greens like Pebble Beach?

[Brian Gracely]

Smaller, plenty of tilt, some undulations (mostly tied into bunkers)...

The argument about not being able to keep them small due to more play is invalid, as Pebble get 50k rounds a year.

Are most of today's greens just a concession to weaker players who need a bigger target, or is there something inherently complicated about building smaller greens like Pebble?

[paul cowley]

Brian....Pebbles greens when constructed were probably at least 30 to 40% larger....the usable green surface has shrunk in relation to the un-pinnable slopes created due to increased slopes caused by sand slash accumulations over time from people playing out of greenside bunkers.
...if someone created similar greens complexes today they would have to be re-built periodically or aggressively maintained in a manner to prevent shrinkage.
 

[Scott Cannon]

C&C do! Miss the green pin high and forget par.

[Brian Marion]

Smaller, plenty of tilt, some undulations (mostly tied into bunkers)...

The argument about not being able to keep them small due to more play is invalid, as Pebble get 50k rounds a year.

Are most of today's greens just a concession to weaker players who need a bigger target, or is there something inherently complicated about building smaller greens like Pebble?

Maybe it's that big greens with lots of undulations look better. Pebbles greens tend to be underwhelming until you start trying to make putts.

[Sean Leary]

Paul,

I've always wondered whether they had shrunken over time, particularly holes like 17.  I wonder why they wouldn't want to restore them to their original size............

[paul cowley]

Sean....its a tough call because the original greens didn't play as well as the greens of today [or even 30 years ago].

...its like what part of the greens evolution do you go back to ....or what do you try to maintain to?

All courses are constantly evolving...for the better or worse, but never static ....

[Brian_Sleeman]

...if someone created similar greens complexes today they would have to be re-built periodically or aggressively maintained in a manner to prevent shrinkage.
 

"Like a frightened turtle!"  

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Pebble's always stood out in my mind (again, just from TV coverage and the advantage of some accurate 3-dimensional replications for video games) as a course with great greens.  As long as the slopes remain there, it seems like things will be fine no matter how far guys hit the ball.  

It's one of the things I find particularly interesting about #7, which when you get past the setting and the variability of conditions, is left pretty much solely to the contours of the green for defense.

[Scott Cannon]

Pebble's always stood out in my mind (again, just from TV coverage and the advantage of some accurate 3-dimensional replications for video games) ...
It's one of the things I find particularly interesting about #7, which when you get past the setting and the variability of conditions, is left pretty much solely to the contours of the green for defense.

Brian,
Standing on 7 tee, about all that can be seen is the top of the flag and the water, it's a tougher hole that you think. When you make it out there, you'll see.

[Tom_Doak]

Jack Nicklaus will build greens as small as Pebble when he can, but he doesn't put the same tilt in them.

We'll put the tilt in them, but seldom build them THAT small.  Those greens have had to be rebuilt twice in the past 25 years because of all the wear and tear, and they are still usually in mediocre condition because of the traffic.

[redanman]

TD

How original are those greens, size-wise in your opinion?

[Jim Sweeney]

Wouldn't one answer be that with today's grasses and the desire for green speed, greens like Pebble's would be unputtable, especially in the wind?

[TEPaul]

One of the commentators said yesterday that the 8th green at PB was LESS than 2,000 sf. It may be small but I do not believe for a minute it could possibly be less than 2,000 sf.  That would mean it would be over 20% smaller than either the left or right green at PVGC and I certainly do not believe it is that.

[A_Clay_Man]

It is true that puting a different grass on those greens is a STUPID idea. I guess that's why the company tried to do it. The Poa is perfect for the undulations.

Asking the pro's to adapt a different stroke for that grass, isn't an unfair question.

[Doug Siebert]

Smaller, plenty of tilt, some undulations (mostly tied into bunkers)...

The argument about not being able to keep them small due to more play is invalid, as Pebble get 50k rounds a year.

Are most of today's greens just a concession to weaker players who need a bigger target, or is there something inherently complicated about building smaller greens like Pebble?

Is the argument that small greens can't stand 50k rounds per year at all, or can't without a lot of expensive maintenance?  That nut at PB can pay for a lot of TLC!

[cary lichtenstein]

The difficulty of those greens lies in the grain and that's part of their charm as well.

[A_Clay_Man]

Cary, There are many more golfers/caddies/pros, on the peninsula who are certain that Poa has negligible, if any, grain, than those who do.