[Dale_McCallon]

What is it that makes a course's character/charm?  Is it just the course itself--quirky bounces, rolling greens, bunkering?  

My opinion is that it is more than just 18 holes--it's everything around it.  It's memorable members, its beauty (or not so beauty) and so many other things.

It's funny that I ask this--because while reading the locker room thread, I thought to myself, "Who cares, I'm just there for the golf."  But then II started thinking about it this weekend as my home course unveiled its new clubhouse.  Small, but very attractive--everthing so nice and shiny.  While I'm sure most will call it a huge improvement, I already missed the old shack we had before.  Sure the carpet needed replacing, the TV's reception was shaky at best and the one couch needed reupholstering about 15 years ago, but it was home.  A great place to sit down, eat your hot dog and just shoot the breeze.  I compared it to "Cheers."  A place where everyone knows your name.

I'll miss the old place, and maybe if I try hard enough, I can get some of the new carpet to tear--make it feel more lived in I suppose.

[Tom Huckaby]

Dale:

This issue is near and dear to my heart - Mr. Mucci and I have battled over it for quite awhile, in another form.  I maintain that peripheral views do matter in an assessment of a golf course, he limits such to the course itself and mocks me for noticing views.  I mock him for being cold-hearted and soul-less.  The battle continues.

I do think you have to be careful in your question here though.  The clubhouse and the members and the feeling evoked by such do matter in an assessment of a golf CLUB, but not really in a golf COURSE.  To me that's a key difference I'm sure you'll concur with - I'm just saving you some Muccian wrath.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dale,

Being from California, Tom Huckaby is into "eye candy" at the periphery, whereas I'm into the inherent architectural values of the golf course.

[John Kavanaugh]

Patrick,

Have you ever played the nine hole course on the grounds at Notre Dame....You gotta love that view.

[Tim Leahy]

Dale,Being from California, Tom Huckaby is into "eye candy" at the periphery, whereas I'm into the inherent architectural values of the golf course.

12543 posts? Have you ever been out of the house to see the views from a golf course?

[Forrest Richardson]

Character is what you might say in a brief description to someone in a hurry. If your description is all about the bunkers or just a few holes — and is simple to impart just by visual description — then the chances are decent that it is a superficial course. If it takes a long and labored amount of words, it may be that nothing shines through.

If, on the other hand, you are able to say — and with effortless meaning — what the course is all about in a few eloquent lines, then you have probably described a great course.

Yes. It is about everything. Not just the look and aesthetics. But the essence of all that surrounds the golfer. And, not just the course, but the entry, the people, the embroidered sweaters and the bar tend's favorite drink. Did I mention the smell of the wood in the locker room? Well, that, too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Have you ever played the nine hole course on the grounds at Notre Dame....You gotta love that view.

JakaB,

My room, in my junior year, overlooked the golf course.

Tim,

I was confined to quarters for two years and usually posted between 12 midnight and 7:00 am.  GCA.com helped me restore the sanity I lost dealing with TEPaul.

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,

Have you ever played the nine hole course on the grounds at Notre Dame....You gotta love that view.

John,
Not sure what you meant by that, but personally when I student there I always loved that the 9th hole had a beautiful view of my dorm in the background (with the Golden Dome further out). The dorm looks like a castle from the outside, just don't go inside  

Of course you could mean the view off the 4th hole of my old high school complete with a very ugly smokestack. Only I could love that view based on afternoons looking out the window at school wishing I was on the other side of the fence  

[mike_beene]

Where do the sheds on the Road Hole fit in your logic?

[Andy Troeger]

Dale:

This issue is near and dear to my heart - Mr. Mucci and I have battled over it for quite awhile, in another form.  I maintain that peripheral views do matter in an assessment of a golf course, he limits such to the course itself and mocks me for noticing views.  I mock him for being cold-hearted and soul-less.  The battle continues.

Tom,
Personally I agree. The course itself is important, but I certainly have to look around at the peripheral views as well. There's a far different feel to a course (for me) that is surrounded by nature than surrounded by homes, for example. The holes can be wonderful, but the surrounds can tend to make or break the place for me if they're exceptional or terrible. If they're average then I probably don't notice them too much.  

I personally could care less about the clubhouse or other general amenities. Good company is much more important than either IMO.

[Tom Huckaby]

Andy:

I'm right with you on all of that.  I would say that clubhouse/amenities/etc. matter in an assessment of a CLUB, but it's silly to say they matter in an assessment of a COURSE.  And of course peripheral views matter to all golfers except Stevie Wonder and the soul-less.

Hmm.... that's not a bad name for band....

But it looks as though Patrick has finally hit on the heart of our disagreement here.  Yes, I do live in California, so I do have lots of nice things to look at, in all connotations of that.  Patrick lives where, New Jersey?

Say no more.  It's all crystal clear now.

 

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

I'm right with you on all of that.  I would say that clubhouse/amenities/etc. matter in an assessment of a CLUB, but it's silly to say they matter in an assessment of a COURSE.  And of course peripheral views matter to all golfers except Stevie Wonder and the soul-less.

Hmm.... that's not a bad name for band....

But it looks as though Patrick has finally hit on the heart of our disagreement here.  Yes, I do live in California, so I do have lots of nice things to look at, in all connotations of that.  Patrick lives where, New Jersey?

Say no more.  It's all crystal clear now.

 

Tom,
One more mystery of life checked off the list!

I agree, I'm thinking of evaluating courses and not clubs. Until that point where I can afford to join one, I'll leave worrying about that type of stuff to others! I probably pay too much attention to the peripheral views, but then again I hit so few fairways that I have to be aware of my surrounds just in case!  

[Jeff Fortson]

Dale,

Being from California, Tom Huckaby is into "eye candy" at the periphery, whereas I'm into the inherent architectural values of the golf course.

Being from California I take this as an attack!

Obviously the architecure itself is the main and most important aspect of giving a course character, IMO.  I think the competitive and general clug history is a distant second in giving a course its character.  Even further removed from importance IMO is the "eye candy" of views and such.


Jeff F.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jeff:

Just to clarify my position in my discussions with Patrick, I would completely agree with:


the architecure itself is the main and most important aspect of giving a course character, IMO.

What Patrick tried to say is that views and surroundings don't matter AT ALL.  That is, they don't count for any portion of any percent in any assessment of a golf course - he has them at zero.

I believe last we left this, I put them at something like 5%.  But that is a key 5%.

I'd say club competition and general history definitely matters also - call that 3%.

That leaves 92% for the "architecture", however one wants to define that.

That wasn't enough for Pat.  Noticing views at all seems to be beyond him.  I told him I felt pity for him since he seems to play such a soul-less confined game.  But now that we've put this in proper geographical context, well it does all make sense.  Poor guy.  Thankfully he does get out here from time to time to regain his soul.

 

TH

[TEPaul]

I feel both Merion and PVGC have exceptional character. As long as I've known them both I've never known either one of them to tell even a little white lie. So, in my opinion, both courses are as honest and trustworthy as the day is long.

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