Toronto pre-golf season GCA gathering

[Robert Thompson]

I suspect there will still be a group around at 10, Mr. Andrew.

[Yannick Pilon]

Ian,

If I remember correctly, the last gathering ended around 2:00am....  Showing up at 10:00pm still leaves you quite a bit of time to discuss pond issues.  (By the way, you didn't adress that issue the last time, as far as I know....)

Hell, I feel I should be coming down again!  I could drive down after work and still get there around 10:00pm as well!

[Robert Emmons]

I'm in...Just got back from a week at the olympics...see you on Friday...RHE

[Robert Thompson]

It looks like there will be a fine crew for Friday's gathering. I'm going to call Murphy's Law and will confirm a location -- perhaps downstairs like our last engagement. I suspect we'll have around 15 guys, as the turnout looks strong.

I'll post the remaining details on Thursday.

[Robert Thompson]

Gents: Looks like we are expecting between 10 and 15 as part of our turnout and we'll be in the same part of Murphy's Law as the last time. If you didn't make it last time, we will be located in the basement at the south end of the building. Can't remember the exact room, but I've called the bar and they are expecting the "golf guys."
Dinner will be available for those interested and they have a good assortment of beers.

Looking forward to catching up with everyone, old and new.

RT

[Ian Andrew]

I think there will be a few more people that are not on the site, it seems our little get together has interested some in the golf community. I will see you all there a little late (9:00 -10:00), and the famous BCD will be along too.

Hope there is lots of talk about ponds.

Ian

[Robert Thompson]

Actually Ian will be late as he's preparing a Powerpoint presentation specifically on ponds and pond restoration. Prepare to be blown away.

[Robert Thompson]

A good time was had by the 13 gents who showed up last night to drink Guiness and talk about such topics as: Scarborough Golf Club, a matchplay fight between St. George's and Highlands Links (HL won), the ball/distance issue and interesting courses in the Toronto area.

The plan is to arrange another meeting for late June, this one perhaps with a golf game and dinner attached. I'll keep everyone posted.

[Kerry Gray]

Agreed,
A great time and it was a pleasure to meet so many other of the forum members. Look forward to the next meeting.
Thanks for organizing the event Robert.

Kerry "The Tree Hugger" Gray.

[Chris Parker]

Agreed,
A great time and it was a pleasure to meet so many other of the forum members. Look forward to the next meeting.
Thanks for organizing the event Robert.

Kerry "The Tree Hugger" Gray.

Kerry,

It was great to meet you on Friday night.  I agree with you on the trees.  I think they definitely can have strategic as well as aesthetic value in golf.  I see where Ian is coming from though.  I think his reaction is, in part, a result of the chronic over-use of trees, especially in the GTA.  I think that club members have to realize that tree growth, not just turf growth, has to be maintained and controlled on a regular basis.

I'm looking forward to the next meeting too!

[Dave Kemp]

Enjoyed the evening very much.   I had a topic I wanted to get into but never did given all the other great discussion.

Do we have a "minimalist" course in our midst?  I read so much about that style here yet it is always around courses to the south or over the pond.  Yannick Pilon raised this topic (best minimalist courses) a few months backed and the only Canadian course mentioned in the thread was Wolf Creek.

Thanks

[Ian Andrew]

The answer is Highland Links, Thompson followed the soil available and had little machinery available for construction. From all the reading I've done, I doubt they moved anything to build the course. When your there, you come away with the same impression.

I thought I understood Rod pushed dirt around at Wolf Creek, while the result was natural looking, would that be minimalist?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Dave,

Wolf Creek is a study in shaping, not "minimalist" architecture.

Wolf Creek was Rod's first solo design, after working a couple projects for Pete Dye. He hasn't moved even close to as much dirt since. In fact, Rod says every square inch of the property at Wolf Creek was touch, and re-touched by a bulldozer blade!

Funny, he's consistently complimented on his "great use of a great piece of property" at Wolf Creek. That's a testament to Rod's abilities as a golf course constructor who can create artificial features that look remarkably natural.

Blackhawk was totally different. Very little work was done there other than shaping tees, bunkers and greens. I can only think of two, maybe three fairways where any notable shaping work was carried out.

Although Rod would never use the term, Blackhawk is way more "minimalist" than Wolf Creek. Way more. In fact, the architecture at Blackhawk is very "minimalist".

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

The answer is Highland Links, Thompson followed the soil available and had little machinery available for construction. From all the reading I've done, I doubt they moved anything to build the course. When your there, you come away with the same impression.

Ian:
I agree that Highland Links is "minimalist" but the next time you are there, go in to the bush alongside the holes and you will find "borrow pits"
Because a lot of the property has bed rock close to the surface, to obtain fill to create proper landing areas and to build up greens and tees, Stanley was ingenious.
I am sure they tested lots of areas before selecting the borrow pits he used making sure he was getting proper material. Give it a good look the next time you are there.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Dick,

I recall river bed silt from the area that's now the sixth fairway was used to cap bedrock throughout the course and build tees and greens at Highlands Links.

Ken Donovan's interview with Geoff Cornish in the Nashwaak Review indicates that the material wasn't very good, actually. The greens turned to bricks.  

Mr. Cornish says Robbie Robinson went out there a number of times over the years to try to correct that problem.

[Yannick Pilon]

Do we have a "minimalist" course in our midst?  

Dave,

I don't think there are a lot of minimalist courses in Canada apart from Blackhawk, but I am sure our friend, Mr. Andrews, is working on correcting that...


Too bad I missed that meeting.  I am sure the discussion about Scarboro GC must have been really interesting....

See you next time , guys!

[Matthew MacKay]

Great time on Friday...boy, that Ben guy likes to party!  Just kidding Ben, too bad the bar closed our discussion down.  Chris, thanks again for the lift home.  Can't wait for a golf outing this summer.

What about Redtail?  Could it be considered minimalist?  Certainly not a lot of extranious features.

Jeff, I'm heading to Blackhawk end of April...is it even going to be open by then?  I've heard Jasper is a no-go at that time of year.

[Robert Thompson]

Redtail didn't move any dirt at all on a couple of holes, most notably the par five second.
So yes, I think it would qualify.

RT

[Dave Kemp]

Thanks for the replies guys.  Looks like there is a road trip in the making given the lack of this style of course in the general vicinity.  How far is it really to Nebraska?  Off to the rink so I will do so more research on this later.

Dave

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Ian, Yannik and Robert:

I think the term minimalist means stripping something down to its bare essentials.
That does not mean that you do not cut down any trees, dig any ponds, move any dirt, reshape any fairways etc etc etc.
There are thousands of golf courses (hundreds in Canada) that qualify.
This would include almost ANY course built without moving large quantities of earth and would include most courses built prior to 1975. In the period 1957 to 1975 I was involved in the construction of many golf courses where the only earth moved was to build the features -greens, tees and bunkers.When the new wave of architects felt that the more earth moved, the better the course would be, and making it easier to leave their trademark design influences on them. Of course, a fee structure based on a percentage of cost influenced the departure from minimalism also.
It is also not possible to build a golf hole without moving ANY earth (Redtail?)

[Chris Parker]

Chris, thanks again for the lift home.  Can't wait for a golf outing this summer.

Matt,

You're welcome.  It was quite the drive back to Peterborough!  Only 100 km/h maximum on the 401/115, and you couldn't tell what lane you were in.  Oh well, I got back safe and sound.  

I really think we should get the boys up to Peterborough this summer.  I think Heron Landing and Liftlock would blow them away!  

FYI, the website for the phallic-looking object on my passenger seat is here.  

[Robert Thompson]

Ian, Yannik and Robert:

I think the term minimalist means stripping something down to its bare essentials.
That does not mean that you do not cut down any trees, dig any ponds, move any dirt, reshape any fairways etc etc etc.
There are thousands of golf courses (hundreds in Canada) that qualify.
This would include almost ANY course built without moving large quantities of earth and would include most courses built prior to 1975. In the period 1957 to 1975 I was involved in the construction of many golf courses where the only earth moved was to build the features -greens, tees and bunkers.When the new wave of architects felt that the more earth moved, the better the course would be, and making it easier to leave their trademark design influences on them. Of course, a fee structure based on a percentage of cost influenced the departure from minimalism also.
It is also not possible to build a golf hole without moving ANY earth (Redtail?)

Interesting points, Dick. And I think you are right -- just not moving dirt doesn't count.
That said, I think Steel tried very hard to work within the land at Redtail. Chris Goodwin, the owner at Redtail, always claims nothing was pushed around to create the fairway or green on the second hole. I'm sure SOME was moved, but I think he meant it was not a created hole -- it was largely just there.

Sorry to have missed you on Friday, Dick. Hoping to catch up with you and am considering making the leap into the Thompson Society.

RT