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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Palm Desert
« on: November 16, 2002, 07:26:59 AM »
Any thoughts on the following courses in the Palm Desert area?

Vintage
Tradition
Reserve
Bighorn
Eldorado
Tamarisk
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

FORTSONATOR

Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2002, 02:19:28 PM »
I lived in Palm Desert for 10 years.  I played golf for Palm Desert H.S. and worked as a golf pro at La Quinta Mountain & Dunes for 3 years.  I have played almost all the courses in the Coachella Valley.  My thoughts are.....

Vintage - As a kid I loved it because of its exclusivity.  When I got a chance to play there in a junior golf tournament it was a special thing.  The course is usually in "PERFECT" condition.  With that said, looking back, there are a couple really good holes but most of the holes would be slightly above average to average if it weren't for the location and conditioning.  #16 & #17 get a lot of attention and are right up against the hillside with some dramatic shots.  I give it a 7.0 out of 10.

Tradition - Was too exclusive and new before I moved to have played there.  I have heard it is similar to the Vintage in regards to conditioning.  As for the course(s) I can't make an opinion.

The Reserve - Played it once and had an overall good experience.  I liked the general layout of the course and is also in excellent condition.  A couple short par 4's and short par 3's to mix up with some ball buster par 4's.  I give it a 7.5 out of 10.

Bighorn - Only played the original 18 holes.  This course was brutally tough.  If you were at all off line with your shots you might as well drop another and go from there.  The desert that borders both side of every hole is unforgiving and basically unplayable.  On the flip side if you hit the ball on line you can make tons of birdies.  I give it a 7.0 out of 10.

Eldorado - Old School desert layout.  I like it's old look.  It reminds me of the day of the Coachella Valley hustlers.  It's one of those courses you can go real low on.  It has homes bordering most of the holes but it happens to be in a beautiful little cove.  I like it for its history and old appeal.  I give it a 7.0 out of 10.

Tamarisk - Another course I just never got around to playing.  It's very private and I didn't know the right people to ever get to play it.

I hope that helped.  My favorites in the desert are the Dinah Shore Tournament Course at Mission Hills, The Palms, PGA West Stadium, La Quinta Mountain, and Landmark North.  Check those out if you haven't played them.

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2002, 02:46:31 PM »
Paul:

For what it's worth if you can it's well worth it to play The Quarry at LaQuinta. First rate effort by architect TF and the closing five holes are well done.

On the public side you have to start with PGA West / Stadium.
If you're looking for a taxpayer owned course of quality try the FireCliff 18 at Desert Willow in Palm Desert. The course has more of Scottsdale look than the generic presentation you would automatically associate within the Coachella Valley.

I agree for the most part with Fortsonator on the rest of the layouts you initially asked about although I believe the Vintage and Tradition are a bit overrated.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2002, 04:39:54 PM »
Unlike most areas of the country, in and around Palm Springs I think the private courses are generally a little overrated and the public courses underrated.

Of the privates my favorite is The Palms which is also my favorite Schmidt-Curley course.  Very interesting layout with wonderful green sites and it is unlike most of the courses in the area.  I also like The Vintage.

As for the public courses I would say that PGA West Stadium is a must (the Palmer, Nicklaus, and Weiskopf private courses are easily skippable and I would tell anyone to avoid the Norman and Nicklaus Tournament). I also like Landmark North, La Quinta Mountain, Cimarron,  Shadow Ridge and Desert Dunes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

A_Clay_Man

Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2002, 05:51:09 PM »
Who knows about the city of LaQuinta's plans for a muni?
Just me?

I believe a friend of mine approached the city and suggested that having a muni for the hard working people of La Quinta would be nice. They actually approved it and spent a fortune on some land. Interesting, very interesting.
I sure hope they do thier research and follow the RC/WH low cost high fun models. :-*
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2002, 08:19:18 AM »
Matt:

I've played the Quarry, the Stadium and most of the other PGA West layouts, as well as a few others.  The list here are ones that have been recommended to me, but which I have seen/heard little about.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2002, 08:17:17 PM »
What does anyone know about the Palms?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

FORTSONATOR

Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2002, 09:14:42 PM »
Paul Richards,

In what regards?  I know it is a private club.  It is next door to the PGA West facility, particularly the Norman Course.  From a design standpoint I believe it is a Curley/Couples design.  I happen to really enjoy the course.  The back nine does stretch some 4000 yards from the back tees but don't let that fool you.  The wind and taking proper angles can make it much shorter.  Most of the holes are cut through an old Palm orchard.  Hitting your tee shots in the "trees" can be like playing Plinko.  It is in my Top 5 courses in the Coachella Valley.  It is a must if you can get out.

FORTSONATOR
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2002, 04:57:51 AM »
Fortsonator:

So what are the other 4 of your top 5 in the Valley?

i'd also love to hear your description of them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

FORTSONATOR

Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2002, 09:28:04 AM »
Paul,

My Top 5 are as follows:

1.  Mission Hills (Dinah Shore Tournament Course) - Private

2.  PGA West Stadium - Public

3.  The Palms - Private

4.  La Quinta Mountain - Public

5.  Landmark North - Public

Those were how I ranked the ones that I have played before I moved.  I still haven't played the Tradition, Quarry, or Shadow Ridge.  

Mission Hills is where they host the ladies Nabisco Championship every year which is a major.  I believe it is a Desmond Muirhead design.  I grew up playing it since my parents were members there when I was a teenager.  I have a love for it due to my youth.  People don't realize how good of a course this is because the women play it.  In my opinion they're the lucky ones.  It is fairly long from the back tees and is similar to like a Winged Foot in that there are trees lining most fairways but not overdone and a small amount of rolling flavor to it.  I could write forever on this course.

PGA West in my opinion is the crowning achievement in "Maximum Golf".  What I mean by that is that Pete Dye created something where you better bring your Maximum Game or be prepared for punishment.  He took a flat piece of land and absolutely shaped one of the most unique designs of the modern area.  This is one course where minimalism would not have worked.

The Palms, see above.

La Quinta Mountain is where I got my first job as an assistan pro.  It is another Pete Dye design.  He made this course look "slightly" more natural as it sits right up against the base of the surounding mountain cove.  About 7 holes actually have the mountain come into play.  #4 is a hole that no one ever seems to talk about but I find it to be one of the best strategic par 5's I have ever seen.  #16 is a true postage stamp type of par 3 where if you miss the green you might as well reload.  It's definitely worth it to play here if either you can get a good rate or if money isn't an object.

Landmark North is relatively new and hosts the Skins Game.  I found this course to be rather good offering some good strategy.  It's features are somewhat Scottish style and is a good bang for your buck even though it's out in the boonies.

Honorable mention...

Cimarron, The Reserve, La Quinta CC, Ironwood South, La Quinta Dunes, La QUinta Citrus, and some others.

Got to go!

Jeff F.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2002, 04:10:02 PM »
Fortsonator:

I have played 1,2, and 4 on your list.  

I would love to hear your reviews of the others you mention in your post!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2002, 05:15:24 PM »
Jeff (Fortsonator):

Are you out there?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

FORTSONATOR

Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2002, 07:22:05 PM »
My in-depth review of "The Palms".....

Designer(s): Fred Couples/?(Brian)? Curley

Yardage (tips): 7000+ (Front @ 3200/Back @ 3900)
Par: 70 (5 Par 3's/3 Par 5's) (Front Par 34/Back par 36)

There are so many reasons that I love this golf course that I am not going to list everything so that I don't bore you to death.....

Architectural Reasons:

1.  Love the green complexes.  The greens are shaped so strategically that people should play there just to learn from it.  The hazards that are used around the green are all in the right spot.  The greens themselves are moderately sloped and mostly elevated moderately to severe over a generally flat terrain.

2.  The property is relatively flat yet the fairways are sloped enough to carrom balls either toward a target or away from them.  They are shaped in places where you can get blind shots (i.e. safe routes to targets and poorly hit shots).  Overall I think the terrain flows without appearing to be moved too much.

3.  I love the routing.  It reminds me of Spyglass Hill in a way.  What I mean by that is the first 5-6 holes are in a dune like setting that are away from the forest of palm trees that the course is built inside of.  The Palms has a gorse like bush that replaces the ivy of Spyglass but doesn't have the elevation changes that the latter has.  Obviously, Spyglass has views that The Palms doesnt.  However, The Palms has what Spyglass doesn't....strong holes after these first handful of gems.  When The Palms goes literally, into "the palms", the course doesn't lose a step.  I think the beauty of the first couple holes at Spyglass hurts the rest of the course.  The Palms does have both nines come back to the clubhouse but in this case it doesn't bother me considering that it is in the desert and temperatures can get well over 100 degrees.  A stop after nine for water or refreshments can be needed at times.  Like Tommy N. says, I do feel that the 18th hole could be better and is one of the "weaker", if you want to use that term, on the course.  It isn't weak enough to make me dislike the course though.  Actually I have had some great finishes to matches on it seeing that it is a reachable par 5 with a creek that fronts the green.  

4.  My favorite hole(s) are #2, #6, and #12.

#2 - This is a par 3 that is no more than 165 yards.  The green is sloped back to front and runs at an angle of front right to back left.  It has a couple bunkers fronting it in the spirit of sand belt style shapes.  It also has a bunker back center that is more of a pot bunker that is a really tough up and down.  A birdie can be easily rewarded with a good tee shot but 5 is in the picture as well if you make a disastrous mistake.  I like it because you can either get the round off to a good start or a possible day of trying to play catch up.

#6 - This is a par 5 that is reachable and about 500 yards.  I like it because it is a lot like #2, tons of risk and reward here.  A creek fronts the green ala #13 at ANGC (supposedly Boom-Boom wanted it to be a hole like #13 at ANGC).  Here's your chance to make an easy birdie before the onslought of the extremely long back nine.

#12 - This is a par 4 that is about 420 yards.  I like this hole because the tee shot appears to be wide open but it really isn't.  The palm trees pick up on the right where the hole doglegs to the right protecting the angle of the fairway in a Cape Hole style.  If you push your drive you will be in a palm tree jail.  Playing out of it can be like playing Plinko on The Price is Right.  The gree is long and relatively narrow with a bunker guarding the right side.  The front and front right of this fairly flat green are deceiving as they slope down about 3 to 5 feet in different spots.  

5.  This is just a straight up genuine attempt to make a strategically sound golf course that also offers the player the feeling of playing in an open expanse unlike most of the desert courses that are lined on both sides with houses.  I guess you can say that I really like this course.


Other Reasons.....

1.  Location.  It's near PGA West and is away from the noise and traffic of the Coachella Valley.  It has some beatuiful views of the surrounding mountains and the wind can kick up out here to make the course change from day to day.

2.  It's a players club.  Last I heard there were 100-120 members with single digit handicaps and 40-50 of those were 5 or less.  I like that.  Sorry, I don't mean to be snooty.  I will play with anyone but it's nice to know there are clubs out there that have members that can "play".


OVERALL RATING ON A SCALE OF 1 TO 10 ---  8.5


I hope that is more of what you were looking for.

Jeff Fortson
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2002, 08:39:01 PM »
Jeff;

Thanks so much!

Excellent review.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2002, 06:55:27 PM »
Quickly by-passing Jeff Fortson's review, I'll add mine and see if they are close.

I think there are some similarities with both Landmark courses by mixing up the two nines with some natural features of the site. (This doesn't mean that they are anything alike in estehtics or design--they aren't. It means that the two nines have a different look to them.) The Palms utilizes natural mesquite on the front nine and closely planted palms on the back creating these "chutes" like teeing areas. It actually gives the flat site some interesting features that just really didn't exist when it was a date orchard.

The 1st is a unusual by C&S standards medium to long par 4, as most of their designs feature a short 2-shotter to start things off. The one-shotters are the best in their resume, and featue back to back par 3's at 16 and 17. Its quirky and fun seeing how they fit into the site, and the 16th is supposedly a copy of Riviera #14, which, if it is, on a much smaller scale.

The bunkering style of the course is clearly Brian Curley imitating George C. Thomas, which means it is too deep and a little too much. Still it is pretty challenging and it is well placed.

The 5's are pretty good, even the odd 6th which in truth needs a tad bit more defintion in the same way Bandon Dunes #18 needs a line of definition.

The greens are the typical C&S partly-crowned "Lays" potato chips, and they are challenging, but repetiticious. There are some pretty interesting faux creeks installed for a "Augusta-like" feel.at holes 7&8.

#18 is the best finishing hole C & S have ever designed, but that isn't saying much.

Is it a Top 100 Modern?

Looking at some of the courses on the list, yes, absolutely.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2002, 09:56:15 PM »
Tommy;

Have you played the other ones listed?  If so, I'd love to hear your critique on all of them!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

jim__janosik

Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2002, 08:31:16 PM »
AClayMan,

The whole golf world knows about it in So CAl. The City put out an RFP for master  planning the site this SUmmer. It will have 45 holes of golf plus other recreation and a hotel. I would suspect that in 18 months they will RFP for architects. They will want to be better than Desert Willow. The site certainly
lends itself to superb golf. They paid 45 million for 300 acres.
KSL(owners PGA West/LQ Hotel) originaly had the project planned for 36 holes plus 300 houses. I'm in the Project Managment biz and there will be quite a scramble to land this project. Development costs are estimated to be $120 million.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2002, 10:26:11 PM »
Paul, I'll try to post something later.

Jim, Adam was telling about this property, but I still don't know exactly where it is. Is this the stuff on Washington and Eisenhower, across from Rancho La Quinta?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2002, 04:48:34 AM »
Tommy;

Thanks. ;)

Looking forward to reading it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

jim__janosik

Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2002, 08:18:26 PM »
Tommy, its is a Triangle with the Santa Rosa Mountains as the base and Jefferson as one side and 50th the other.
Jefferson dead ends at the entrance to PGA West. The property extends from that corner over to the edge of the Tradition.

If know you get around SoCal alot. Keep your eyes on Rolling Hills CC. They are planning on dozing over the existing course and a new 18 on the adjacent rock quarry. They are interviewing Architects right now. They want JohnCook to have some input.

Also, any ideas on who is desiging the new 11 holes at the Quarry? It is under construction right now. I heard its executive length?

I hope your Thanksgiving is good.

Jim
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Palm Desert
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2002, 11:50:47 PM »
Quote
If know you get around SoCal alot. Keep your eyes on Rolling Hills CC. They are planning on dozing over the existing course...

Rolling Hills CC in Palos Verdes??   Tommy would throw himself in front of the bulldozers rather than have a Ted Robinson course destroyed.  ;)

California Golf says that John Cook has the record there with a 63.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.
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