Containment

[Sean Leary]

On the cartpath thread, it is discussed that you have a double edged sword with hiding cartpaths behind mounds.  You eliminate the cartpaths from sight, but that often gives you a containment feature that is so often disparaged.  

Question. In terms of containment being a negative, are people talking about VISUAL containment or PLAYABLE containment? Is it that people don't like the look of it or the fact that it keeps your ball in play or bounces back towards the fairway?  My home course has the visual kind, but these containment mounds are far enough outside the bounds of play (where the paths are hidden) so that it doesn't become playable containment. Which type (or both) don't you like and why? Are there examples of containment that you do like and why....

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sean,

You probably won't find a lot of support for any kind of containment on this site, where there is a strong preference for natural land use.

The objections here are for both play and visual reasons, with, I think, visual reasons (i.e. unnatural mounding) dominating.

It can make sense, such as on outside of reverse slope doglegs.  And perhaps, for any course catering to outings where the golfers are long on pocketbook and short on skill.....

The first I heard of containment was from one Mr. Nicklaus, and many tour pros feel as he does/did that a course ought to help you hit shots and stay in play.  So, the theory of containment ain't just for the high handicappers.

[A_Clay_Man]

In my brief conversation with Ben Crenshaw, he cited the core principles of one George C. Thomas, and how every feature should flow with the natural drainage, not against it.

For me, that implies a limited opportunity for any feature that resembles containment.

I anticipate the flat earth society will have a field day with that comment.

[Tom_Doak]

Personally, I hate the idea of containment from a playing standpoint.  One of the only things we have left to make a golf course difficult for a good player is the fear of having a shot get away from him into double-bogey country.  

That said, there are obviously times where you have to have some sort of containment to keep the course from becoming impossible for the average golfer, but in those cases I still try to make it invisible, so that the good player still has that fear of what might happen.  So I'm against visual containment, too.

Visual screening is another issue entirely; sometimes you cannot help pointing a hole toward something ugly, and in that case, screening it either right behind the green or at the property line is warranted.

Dunes are convex and the hollows between them are concave, so there is plenty of opportunity to bring either side of the coin into play depending on what you want to do on that hole.

[A_Clay_Man]

The fourth at Paa-ko-ridge has the hillside right. My first reaction was that it was an acceptable use of "natural" containment.
For me, the natural type is the only acceptable type.

[Patrick_Mucci]

On the cartpath thread, it is discussed that you have a double edged sword with hiding cartpaths behind mounds.  You eliminate the cartpaths from sight, but that often gives you a containment feature that is so often disparaged.  
Then your understanding of mounding is extremely limited to large mounds sometimes refered to as containment mounds.

Hiding a 6' to 8' wide, flat path, at ground level doesn't require much in terms of elevation for the blocking feature.[/color]

Question. In terms of containment being a negative, are people talking about VISUAL containment or PLAYABLE containment?

Are you talking about hiding a cart path or hiding a house ?

Most containment mounds are visual, although they can reside at the perimeter of the playing areas.[/color]

Is it that people don't like the look of it or the fact that it keeps your ball in play or bounces back towards the fairway?  


It's that some people don't like Rees Jones[/color]

My home course has the visual kind, but these containment mounds are far enough outside the bounds of play (where the paths are hidden) so that it doesn't become playable containment.

That tends to be the great majority of them.
However, certain of the cognoscente dismiss large mounds, irrespective of their function, which can be diverse, choosing to lump them into one, catchall category of "containment"

ie.

burying debris
Acoustical screening
Visual screening
Drainage
fill dumps[/color]

Which type (or both) don't you like and why?

Are there examples of containment that you do like and why....


If you're going to ask them "WHY", that assumes that they know all of the facts relative to each specific mound, which most don't.

If the mounds are removed from play, I too would like to know why some object to mounds when they provide an important function.

AWT and others placed mounds in play.

Perhaps someone familiar with Riviera can address the feature found on # 5.[/color]

Tom Doak,

How would you classify Pete Dye's containment mounding at Old Marsh, which assisted his new and perhaps revolutionary drainage system ?

How do you feel about the huge, intervening barrier mound he created on the 5th hole at Old Marsh ?

Adam Clayman.

So, you're against all those debris mounds that the "Golden Age" architects created ?

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:  The catch basins in the fairways were the key to the drainage system at Old Marsh, and at Whistling Straits and other courses.  I hate that system because Pete for some reason always seemed compelled to separate the fairway drainage from the rough drainage ... so there is a lip at the edge of every fairway!  It looks much worse at Whistling Straits because it's so obvious; the grading at Old Marsh is much more subtle.  But, the mounds are there for the same reasons as on any other new course.

I'm not a fan of the short par-4 at Old Marsh -- was it the sixth?  I saw the original version of that hole at Long Cove, the fifth, and I liked it better because you could try to drive it up on the dune or close to the water to get a peek at the green, but either play was risky.  Pete liked the hole very much and he used it as a template for many courses afterward -- Firethorn has one, Old Marsh, the Dinah Shore course at Mission Hills, and others which escape me right now.  

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