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mike_malone

Water--- Maintenance and Design for the coming crisis
« on: January 17, 2006, 11:34:30 AM »
 Wayne and I had an interesting conversation with the Rolling Green superintentent yesterday ( we were cruising the course on our dirtbikes ;D). He spoke of wanting to plant some rough grasses that could be survivors as water costs and availability become a problem.

    What do you think of future planning for this problem?
AKA Mayday

JESII

Re:Water--- Maintenance and Design for the coming crisis
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2006, 11:45:37 AM »
Mike,

I think Darwins theory is applicable, only trouble is which are the "survivor grasses" for the problems we don't yet know will be coming?

How about planting a mixture of many different grasses and observing which ones thrive?

Steve Curry

Re:Water--- Maintenance and Design for the coming crisis
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2006, 01:41:43 PM »
There has been found a grass type that can survive as long as a year with no water, can't remember where I saw it.  It won't be lush and green though. :P

What we really need to develop is a turf that looks lush and green but really isn't. ;)

I tend to think the mono-stands will have to go.

Steve

wsmorrison

Re:Water--- Maintenance and Design for the coming crisis
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2006, 01:56:17 PM »
More fodder for the rumor mill about me in the card room at RGGC.  As if they needed any more since they just make it up anyway ;)

Let me paraphrase Charlie Carr, the new superintendent at Rolling Green.  He is concerned about the trend for multi-row irrigation systems (4 and 5 across) that are installed to water the entire golf course.  He reasons, and I agree, that water restrictions will be a real problem in our area and elsewhere around the globe and that useage on golf courses will be curtailed or prohibitively expensive.  He is thinking about using fescues (turf type) in the rough approximately 10 yards from the first cut on a hole or two and see what the playability and resource allocations are over time.  

I think this kind of forward thinking is worthwhile.  Down the road, water costs may prevent a lot of the functionality of the maxi-irrigation systems from being used thus wasting a lot of money.  I hope all long range plans include a sensible view towards water and other maintenance expenses.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 01:58:27 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Water--- Maintenance and Design for the coming crisis
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2006, 02:14:00 PM »
More fodder for the rumor mill about me in the card room at RGGC.  As if they needed any more since they just make it up anyway ;)

Let me paraphrase Charlie Carr, the new superintendent at Rolling Green.  He is concerned about the trend for multi-row irrigation systems (4 and 5 across) that are installed to water the entire golf course.  He reasons, and I agree, that water restrictions will be a real problem in our area and elsewhere around the globe and that useage on golf courses will be curtailed or prohibitively expensive.  He is thinking about using fescues (turf type) in the rough approximately 10 yards from the first cut on a hole or two and see what the playability and resource allocations are over time.  

I think this kind of forward thinking is worthwhile.  Down the road, water costs may prevent a lot of the functionality of the maxi-irrigation systems from being used thus wasting a lot of money.  I hope all long range plans include a sensible view towards water and other maintenance expenses.

Use on fescue is not really forward thinking, I would say it has its place and is a pretty typical scenario for most new work.  Since fescue is non-native I think a more forward looking approach is the use of warm season species in the outer roughs, not fescue.  

A multi-row system in the right hands is going to be a major component in saving water.  I don't think Charlie is looking at it correctly.  Certainly if  this type of system is not properly used wasted water is possible but you could argue that a double row system has a much greater chance of wasting water even in the right hands unless you have a huge maintenance budget to account for handwatering.

wsmorrison

Re:Water--- Maintenance and Design for the coming crisis
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2006, 02:30:14 PM »
Kelly,

I am very pleased you responded.  Your's is an interesting take on this and one I am not up on.  What sort of warm season species in the outer roughs are you referring to?  My limited experience has shown that the turf type tall fescues around bunkers do extremely well with higher temps from the proximity to the sand and less watering.  However, I don't know my ass from a hole in the wall when it comes to this stuff so I am thirsty for more information.  

I see your point about multi-rows that are programmed in a proper fashion being ideal in that water distribution is the most customizable.  I guess the initial cost can be compensated by judicious watering and in the right hands it could lead to a cost savings.  

It doesn't appear to be as simple as I first thought.

Joe Hancock

Re:Water--- Maintenance and Design for the coming crisis
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2006, 02:44:59 PM »
Wayne,

There is an area in front of #6 at RGGC that has bermudagrass- a warm season grass- mixed in with an assortment of other grasses. It will be noticable this time of year because it is the same color as Grandma's couch....plain beige.  ;D

I see two definite, different approaches developing here:

1) Plant a grass, like fine fescue, that goes in and out of drought dormancy very well, then keep the water, mowers and maintaenance off.

2) Plant a warm season (bermudagrass or zoysia) or transition zone turf (tall fescue) and keep it watered just enough to maintain it. Minimal fertilizers, irrigation and mowing will be enough to keep it rural without it being a "native area".

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

wsmorrison

Re:Water--- Maintenance and Design for the coming crisis
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2006, 03:24:23 PM »
Joe,

Yep, I've noticed that ugly beige on the hill up to 6 and down the hill on 11.  It is thankfully out of play, well at least in theory  ;)

I do not like the playability of bermuda or zoysia so I hope they figure something else out.  What heights can the fine fescue be maintained in the outter rough so that balls are not irretrievably lost resulting in slow play yet the mowers and maintenance equipment aren't on it so much?  

John Keenan

Re:Water--- Maintenance and Design for the coming crisis
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2006, 03:27:59 PM »
On an allied topic, I just read an article on T Boone Pickens of oil and corporate raider fame. Mr.Pickens is now heavily investing in water rights as wll as companies that own such rights as he sees water as the next crisis commodity. One only needs to look at oil and the pricing to see a huge issue if he is correct.

Golf courses would do well to look into grasses that require substantially less water as noted above  as well as not having to mirror AGNC. That is a bar that is set far too high for the vast majority of courses.

Curious is this an issue in design for architects in areas other than deserts? is it ever a consideration?
The things a man has heard and seen are threads of life, and if he pulls them carefully from the confused distaff of memory, any who will can weave them into whatever garments of belief please them best.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Water--- Maintenance and Design for the coming crisis
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2006, 03:54:27 PM »
Wayne,

I think the turf type fine fescue is good for exisitng private clubs with regards for water savings while still giving you that manicured bluegrass look.  however, given your situation where you are boxed in by trees your primary rough may receive a lot of cart traffic and  the fescues don't wear well, maybe the turf type is better but probably not as good as the blues.  With the newer varieties of bent grass you can keep the traffic in the fairways to relieve the strees but I assume you have poa/bent fairways so the stress on them is not good either.  This is why so many private old clubs stick with the bluegrass roughs because they handle wear and look pretty and green.  

On new course construction like at Lederach I went with an all fescue rough from the edge of the fairway and out to a point that is reasonably in play.  It will get beat up from the carts, and it will be dirt and stressed out turf.  In my view that is rough the way it is meant to be.  Of course the management company looks at me in disbelief and I know when the roughs look like hell they will be telling the township the conditions are unacceptable and will try to reseed everything to blue grass.  There is one thing about management companies, they know everything about every topic related to golf and are willing to tell the owner for a fee, and they will blame every one else for any preceived shortcomings, in the meantime they suck the the spirit out of the game.  But that is the risk I am willing to take on Lederach because I have a fuck 'em attitude in this regard because I am going to do what I think is right for the game which I know will be the opposite of everything they want to do.  The mixture we are using is as follows:

40% Big Horn Sheeps Fescue
40% Discovery Hard Fescue
10% Shadow II Chewings Fescue
10% Shademaster II Creeping Red Fescue

I would not recommend this for RGGC except for outer rough even areas in play because you can mow it.

With regard for warm season I was thinking of the following mix:

2.50 PLS lbs./acre Big Bluestem
2.50 PLS lbs./acre Indiangrass
2.0 PLS lbs./acre Little Bluestem
2.00 PLS lbs./acre Canada Wild Rye
.25 PLS lbs./acre Switchgrass
20.00 PLS lbs./acre Hard Fescue

You have to be real careful with this mix because it wants to be 4 to 6 feet high so it is definately an out of play area, but those areas exist on many courses, not a traditional favorite on an old established course though.

I think the turf type fine fescue will be good on the bunker faces and slopes around the greens, because it will be more of the traditional manicured look of the blues but with less water requirements, I just think you have to be careful in the near roughs because of cart traffic particularly on an old course, those guys just don't buy into the rustic, dirty look.

with regards for irrigation, there seems to be no in between, it is either the multi row large number of heads individually contolled, which does give you great control over water useage, and helps you achieve firm conditions in the right hands, but it is a lot of money, probably too much money, or you have those that advocate the double row irrigate what you can, and in the right hands you can have firm conditions but you will have turf loss and you will be doing a lot of hand watering.  Looking at pictures of The Hotchkin Course you would think this type of system is just fine and browned out turf is just fine, but alas it is a hard sell.  Go to Huntingdon Valley and you have a guy that collects the old two speed heads and has a great view on how to irrigate a course using this old technology and how can you argue with his success.  He's right, but he's unique too.  You just don't have a Scott Anderson at every club.  The costs of the irrigation systems and the multi row, large number of heads, individual control approach is hard for me to feel good about because of costs, but I do beleive it sets the stage for having great turf conditions, that give firm conditions and save water.  


wsmorrison

Re:Water--- Maintenance and Design for the coming crisis
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2006, 04:02:05 PM »
Great stuff, Kelly.  Thanks for providing so much information.  I have a lot to read up on and I appreciate you not only pointing the way but leading me much of the way there as well.

You sure are right, there is only one Scott Anderson and HVCC is lucky to have him.  He's the right man for that club!

It'll be interesting to see how Lederach works out.  I admire you your ****'em attitude by doing what you think is right.  Right On!

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Water--- Maintenance and Design for the coming crisis
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2006, 08:12:02 PM »
When trying to use less water grass selection matters, but I'm not sure it matters more then management or expectations. We praise the management style of Scott Anderson and the members of HVCC for their acceptance of the dryer style of golf maintenance more then the species of turf they grow or what kind of irrigation they have.

Less irrigation may mean less water...sometimes. More heads may mean less water...in the right hands.

While I praise the development and use of grasses that have lower water requirements I think it's important to note that we already have some pretty good low water need grasses that work well when the less green look is tolerated.

What we really need is a golfing public that tolerates the dryer look. If more leading clubs adopt the dry philosophy then we will be headed down that road as the look of name clubs is often copied.

I would think warm season roughs would work in what has traditionally been a cool season region as long as the look is tolerated. Warm season grasses can survive with less water and chemical needs, and form a very hardy turf that could make it through the roughest of summers with little difficulty. Winterkill might be an issue, but it is with cool season turf as well.

Count me in as a super who would rather have the heads in the rough then drag hose all summer. I know how to turn 'em off...as long as my members would let me.

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