If you won't admit that ANGC is the greatest course in the USA you are a liar..

[Mike_Young]

Mike Young, I do not intend to be a dick here, but how is Barneys statement having never played the course, reconcile with your position agreeing with kelly, on the Rod Whittman Lorne Rubenstein piece ?

Adam,
Thats where we are different on this particular piece...I was trying to be a dick....
Re: the Rubenstein piece....if I remember correctly....I just stated that the article was a PR piece that was requested by his friend Zokol....we all push for those.....all the article was after was ink....so I don't think we should over analyze it.
Merry Christmas,
Mike

[Mike_Young]

Adam,
You coming to the PGA Show?  

[Mike_Cirba]

Now that my drunk is wearing off I'm wondering if the course is all that much changed from 92...I don't buy that a few yards and a few trees really make a difference in 13 years....I didn't even get to see who won in 92 after typing this and tying the pink sash of my wifes robe into a windsor knot around my neck I didn't see the finish of the telecast.  I can't believe Ian Baker Finch was doing so well...but hell, I know he didn't win.   So, would it be the best course in the country if it still stood as it did in 92....I imagine it would...what the hell does a few yards and a tree or two really make anyway.   My God, Pine Valley has suffered much more in the last 20 years or so and you guys (except redanman) continue to give it a pass..

John,

You've been away too long.

I said PV needed a full blown, close down the course for a a year, bring in the chainsaws, turn off the sand-pros and push them onto the railroad tracks, tell Fazio he can play but not touch, and get some freaking sand back in play RESTORATION.

It's no longer the greatest course in the world in its present state.  Lately, they've been putting a bow tie on a pit bull.

[Mike_Cirba]

Oh, and John...

If you want analogies, ANGC today is the difference between sleeping with the Demi Moore of General Hospital and the Demi Moore of GI Jane.

She's now tougher, rougher, leaner, tighter, and buffer, but she simply ain't the same.  If you can still get it up for a 460 yard, single file 7th hole, you're more man than I.

[ForkaB]

Those of you who think that Barney was drunk when he wrote those posts probably drink far too much (or far too little) yourselves.

The hyperbole in the topic line "....greatest course....", "...liar....", etc. is just that, but also supports a very valid argument.  All but one or two of the participants on this thread have never played the course, and the vast majority of the arguments against relate to added length, and how it has changed "strategy."  Over the past 50 years, there have been very few significant green complex changes, and as Barney rightly implies, its the greens that matter at Augusta, not how far back into the trees they put the tees for their annual Invitation tournament.  For each and every one of the participants on this site (including Mike Clayton), playing from the members tees (at 6800?) would be more than enough to provide a challenge and pique architectural interest.

You all know, of course, that there is another course in the world that gets tested by the best players in the world periodically and has also chosen to move tees back into seemingly ridiculous positions, but can also be played from the more normal tees by 99.9% of the golfers in the world without losing interest, due to the great green complexes.

Yes, a lot of Mackenzie's initial work at ANGC is not there, but a lot of the most interesting of the NLE stuff (e.g. the boomerang green on the 9th) were changed long. long ago, when Bobby Jones was still compos mentis.  Get over it, guys!  These things ain't coming back!  And should they?  Who out there would prefer the old 16th to the new one?

Final point/disclaimer.  I have not played or even seen in person ANGC. However, this just puts it in the same category (for me) as Pine Valley and Royal Melbourne.  I'd love to be able to have the free time to play any one of those three courses, but if I had my choice of the three I'd choose Augusta, in a flash.

So, effectively, I agree with Barney.

[Mike_Young]

Mike Cirba,
You know the one hole that bothers me the most(and I am really not very  bothered by any of it as long as they still have Sconyers Bar B Que in augusta)) is #7.  The one thing that was such a liability there with a slight miscue was spin from a sand wedge......don't know if they will have that again....plus the back right of the green is being lowered.....also the far left fifth of the green falls to the left and don't know how it will play....
But as Rich is saying...I think....
even with the added length, some of these guys will still be hitting less club into the greens than we used to observe.
Mike

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Shivas, The man who turned down ANGC must be one pussy wipped individual or a moron with money and position. I am so pumped for 2006. I will see you guys in Chicago once the wind come from the south and the grass turns green.

[Mike Hendren]

Put me in the corner with John, Mike and Rich and we'll take on all comers.

Augusta National Golf Club suffers from the same dynamic as Pebble Beach on the web-site.  Access isn't a problem (it's readily available at Pebble and out of reach at Augusta) so people feel free to take their shots.   By comparison, one doesn't want to blow thier potential access to a few highly favored (rightly so, I might add) courses by making harsh statements, so a nice brown-nose job can be thinly veiled by praising the architecture.  

As for the golf course, the trees are an abomination and need to go.  The added distance makes perfect sense for the tournament, though I agree with Mike Young that the 7th has morphed into an entirely different hole and would be better served to play at the listed members yards of 330.

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

Augusta is a leading example of American privelege and aristocracy.  The members are generally hugely important men.  There is a great deal of pomp and circumstance, and rules to be followed.  There is still an underlying current of class distinction.  I don't fit in there.  

Huh?


Please elaborate by sharing your experiences there.  Thanks in advance.

Mike

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

John I am not sure of the difference between the membership of ANGC and the ones you mentioned as desiring to play. Of course there are a few members of ANGC who are members of several of the ones you mentioned. The people I know that are members of the one or more of the above list have generally had access at one time of another to the rest of the list. They are for the most part great places to call home. I assure you the ones I have been fortunate enough to play were wonderful experiences both golfing and otherwise.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Shivas, I guess is not very holiday like to ask you what negative adjective you would chose to put on a guy who has the ability yet choses not to be a member of ANGC.

[Ross Thomas]

ANGC is not only the greatest course in America, but also the greatest club in America......how many other private clubs can say the following?

1) Annually lets the public inside the gates, and does an incredible job of hosting them.
2) Has no cart paths
3) Has a diverse membership, with people from all over the country and different types of businesses and background.
4) Continues to support and glorify their founders, even after their health diminishes
5) Has an architectural background & pedigree as strong as any worldwide (MacKenzie, Maxwell, RTJones, Nicklaus, Fazio)


And to those that say ANGC does not support/encourage the ground game, obviously you've never seen #2, 5, 8, 14, not to mention the multitude of chipping/recovery options that exist on almost every hole.  And the added length is only going to enhance this aspect of the course.

[Ross Thomas]

Augusta is a leading example of American privelege and aristocracy.  The members are generally hugely important men.  There is a great deal of pomp and circumstance, and rules to be followed.  There is still an underlying current of class distinction.  I don't fit in there.  Here is a short list of places I havn't played that I'd rather play:

Seminole
The Valley Club
Los Angeles CC
Riviera
Cypress Point
Prairie Dunes
Friar's Head
Sebonack
Shinnecock
NGLA

Sorry, but that list above is frequented by "hugely important men" and playing there absolutely involves "a great deal of pomp and circumstance".  Valley Club and Prairie Dunes might be the exception.....but your definitely not changing your shoes in the parking lot there either.

[John Kirk]

I thought I'd modify this response slightly.  It was stupid ass thing to say, except for saying that I don't feel comfortable in that environment.

I still would rather play any of the courses I listed, for personal reasons.
   

[Robert Thompson]

 Over the past 50 years, there have been very few significant green complex changes, and as Barney rightly implies, its the greens that matter at Augusta, not how far back into the trees they put the tees for their annual Invitation tournament.  

Interestingly, fully one third of Augusta's greens have had some degree of alteration in the past 40 years.... This is a course that gets an annual facelift, just like Joan Rivers.
That doesn't make it better or worse -- but it is a continually evolving course, regardless of what a drunken John K. says.

[BCrosby]

ANGC is the greatest course in the US.

It was the culmination of the Golden Age.

Notwithstanding depredations over the last seven decades, it remains the greatest course in the US.

Bob