[Patrick_Mucci]

Should putting greens be constructed with relation to the length and topography of the hole ?

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, I'd say generally speaking and rule of thumb and all that, a green should be designed for the expected length of shot approaching it, and with topography that makes rational sense in terms of % slope to target green speed ranges.

But, it seems that every great course seems to break those rules of thumb on one or a few of their most notable and exciting holes.  It is just that if you had 18 holes breaking all the rules of thumb, you'd have a deformed pair of hands (or something like that)

I also don't think one can consider the question without specifying what the surrounds are spec'd out like in terms of cut of mowing height, and whether the contouring tends to the crowned fall away, or the containment model.

[Mark Studer]

Pat -YES , and  I would say that 3 great examples  of this are Pine Valley, Merion, and Oakmont.   The longer approach shots are made to larger putting greens that accept a running shot. The holes  that  require a shorter lofted shot have tricky(and smaller) well guarded greens.     Long approaches accepting running plays: PV- #4,5,11,Best- 13 ,15,and 16 ...Merion #2 ,best- 5, 14, 17,and18...Oakmont#1,3,7,8,9,10,12,best-15,16,18.   Shorter lofted shots to tight smaller putting surfaces PV: 2,6,7,best example-#8, 10,12,14(original tee),17.  Merion: #1, 7,8,9 ,10,(best example)-#11,13.  Oakmont #2, 5, 11, (best example tie with #5)-#17.   Go Irish!  Pat,you can tell us about The National ....it is another great example.-Mark

[Dan_Lucas]

I will agree with Dick. You have to break out of the formula occasionally. Here at Kingsley the shortest par four has the largest green on the course (though it has 4 separate greens within a green) and the longest par four has the smallest green on the course. Crystal Downs largest green is on #6, also one of the shortest fours there. I believe the Road Hole breaks the formula also.

Dan

[Jeff_Mingay]

... anything approaching a uniform degree of excellence is the one thing in golf which must be avoided at all cost. It smacks of standardisation, which is abhorrent when it is applied to a game with the fine versatility of golf.

Tom Simpson

[Bill Gayne]

I think the third factor to be considered in addition to length and topography is internal contours to the green. I would venture to say that short holes with large greens are made interesting by greens with a lot of internal contouring. The square footage of the green may be great but the parts of the green that yeild an easy putt or two putt are very small and not readily seen from the approach shot.

[Tom_Doak]

One thing I noticed from my year overseas is that some of the most famous holes on the famous links were long par-4's with very small greens.  Examples:  the Road hole, the 16th at Deal, the 9th and 11th at Ballybunion.

So I don't think a long shot always needs a big green.  You don't need the "shot values" of every hole to balance out to a 4.0.

[Scott Witter]

Pat,

I did a new hole on a course locally about 8 years ago...they are still trying to figure out how to putt the green successfully.

The hole is a 565 yard par 5 and unless you can hit your drive 340-350, it is always a three shotter.  The hole sweeps to the left at about 440 yards. The putting surface is large, about 7300 SF and many have balked at the size with respect to a sand wedge firing at it, but I have witnessed countless good players get suckered into the BIG picture and forget about all the subtle contours and details and only walk away with Par.

Dan Lucas & Bill Gayne replys hit on this too, such that there is so much more involved in green design, construction and play, well beyond length and topography.  That is the beauty of good green design, the experience from tee to green only heightens the experience and the anticipation.  These are only a couple of the parameters to be considered, and as you know, every site and every green site within the course has its own set of conditions to work with to make the hole successful.

[Mark Studer]

Tom D.  I look forward to seeing and playing Deal's 16th someday soon.   Didn't MacKenzie describe The Road Hole as an "ideal" 3 shot 5 par?-Mark

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