Nicklaus/Dye Co-Design

[Craig Van Egmond]

Tom,

        While it is true that some (vocal) members of GCA are predisposed to hate anything related to Nicklaus, Fazio, Rees Jones etc. , there are some of us who are glad that you and others share things other than what Doak and CC are doing. I was excited to hear that Pete and Jack were working together again after all this time and would definately be interested in seeing that.  

       However, whenever the subject of one architect doing multiple courses in one area, regardless of the architect, GCA has been pretty consistant in questioning this practice.  It does seem variety is the spice of life.

        I for one hope you decide to post again.

       

[Jim Nugent]

Typical....I am sorry to say that I had hoped that this thread would start some interesting thought about how great this course could turn out, but as I had feared, it is just going to turn out to be a Jack hate-feast as most threads concerning Jack on this site are.  You guys are so blinded by your distain for the man, you wouldn't know if he was designing great courses or not.  

Tom -- you're partly right.  Most guys who post here probably do not think Jack is as good a designer as several others now out there.  Doak is more their style.  (And mine too, though it's only based on pictures of the courses, not playing them.)    

I don't see the JN hate fest.  You got some enthusiastic posts about Dye and Jack working together.  Interest in how the project developes.  But how much can anyone say about a course that hasn't been designed and doesn't exist?  From your rant -- which caught me totally by surprise -- sounds like you were hoping for a love fest.  

If Jack Nicklaus posted here one tenth as much as Tom Doak does (one hundredth as much), I bet he would win over more fans.  

[SPDB]

I'm not predisposed to anything, except variety, which is, after all, the spice of life.  I thought you were part of the development team; I didn't know you were a Nicklaus design associate. Had I known, I probably would have phrased my question differently.

As Patrick Mucci alluded to, I, too, would have asked the same question if Doak, C&C or Hanse were asked to do 6 courses. I am concerned only with quantity, not quality. Six courses on one site is a lot, and I think it would be very difficult to design 6 distinct courses, no matter how talented the architect.

Since I feel responsible for initiating some of the comments you found objectionable, I apologize. My comments were not in any way intended as a criticism of Jack Nicklaus's architecture.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Soileau,

Participating on GCA.com requires a computer and thick skin.

Don't be so sensitive and learn to filter valid questions and issues from amongst the others.

Long before you posted your thread on Coyote Springs, the issue of multiple or single designers for one site that was to build numerous golf courses has been debated, with pros and cons on both sides.

It would seem to me, that if I was trying to lure golfers to my site for golf I'd adopt the Keiser model.

However, if I was trying to lure home buyers and banks to my site for development I might consider alternatives.

In all candor I would agree that there tends to be a bias against modern designers, with the exception of the annointed few who enjoy most favored nation status.

But, that doesn't mean that valid points and issues can't be raised, discussed and debated.

Your project is huge by any standard, but, having one architect design 40 % of the golf courses seems unusual, no matter what the quality of the work.

It's reasonable to ask if C&C and Tom Doak can create six golf courses in close proximity to one another that don't possess the same style or flavor ?  So why is it unreasonable to ask the same question with respect to Jack Nicklaus ?

If I were a developer on a project such as this, I'd prefer to have distinct Nicklaus and Dye courses as opposed to joint architectural efforts by them as a team.

The team approach seems to stifle creativity and force compromise.  So, from my little corner of the world, I'd rather assign Jack and Pete three courses apiece rather than six jointly designed courses.

If I were the developer, I'd probably have close to 15 seperate architects design 15 seperate golf courses, but, then again, noone called me for consultation ..... on this project.

Keep us posted on the status of the project.
At that scale it's certainly unique.

[RJ_Daley]

In this effort to address Mr Soileau's remarks, we seem to overlook the implications of the grand project itself.  There are obviously questions one would ask when considering the numbers projected.

180,000 housing units?  Would it be safe to say 3 persons to a household?  A population of 540,000 springing up from desert rock and hardscrabble?  All that with centerpieces of golf courses?  

Of course they will be using effluent.  Maybe they have Dye on this because he has been so interested in paspalum turf grasses, and they can process the effluent better with the paspalum.  

They say about on course per 10,000 population is about right.  This project has an intitial phase of 6 or 7 courses, all by JN and one JN/PD.  They seem to like the Villages in Florida.  But, actually I have to wonder where and if an initial build out of 50,000--60,000 people are going to move out there to a golf centric instant community.  I

Is this the future due to retiring baby boomers?  Street after street of highly covenant restricted homes and landscape design, in a sort of McDonald land of golf and home architecture? Will muzak be playing in the background.  What will they play, geezer rock?

Shoot me now...

[Tony Petersen]

Working and playing at the Desert Mountain Club, I have come to the following conclusion with regards to Nicklaus v. C&C / Doak / Hanse / Spann debate and design. I have played ALOT of really really good Nicklaus designs, but nothing GREAT. Sand Hills is GREAT... Pacific Dunes is GREAT... Boston Golf Club is GREAT... Black Mesa is GREAT

'nuf said

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Some projects, maybe many, are not about the architecture.  Certainly, many management companies care very little about the architecture and more about rounds they can generate, maintenance costs, and green fees, and where architecture intersects with those issues then it matters.  So, it is conceivable that designating 6 courses to one architect has nothing to do with the architecture.  

It’s laughable that someone from a company that has 100 projects ongoing could be upset about criticism. The lowest ranking designer in the firm is probably making money we will never see, and more likely, traveling to places, and working with land we would love to have the opportunity to do once in our lifetime.  To come on here under the pretense that you want to talk about how great your course will be before you have even broken ground doesn’t even seem possible.  Where do you start?  I think some architects invent ways to bring up there work to self promote without looking like they’re self promoting.

The criticism is tough to take that is understandable but in the other universe some of us live in the criticism in some form is something we face damn near everyday.  It is a little tiresome when someone on this site gets criticized, whether it is justified or not, and threatens to pick up their ball and go home.  As my favorite Mexican, Matt Ward, would say, “adios pal”!!  It’s a little like turning on the network news and then being offended by purported news read by the “cut and run traitors” that run the networks.  What did you expect?  

R.J. Daley, it is possible that the developer has no intention to build 15 courses. The proposal may have something to do with trying to gain approvals, therefore a 15 course proposal may have helped meet some criteria or sway some votes, with the intention of modifying the approved plan later as market conditions change.  How many developments are there in the world that consists of a single development with 15 courses?  

[redanman]

I want to expand on my answer/post so that it is not misconstrued as a bash on Nicklaus design, because it's not.

One of my very favorite golf courses in a mountain setting is Mayacama - damned good

One of my most favorite if not my favorite desert courses is the original JWN in AZ - Desert Highlands great strategies, land use, flow, etc.

Having said that, mountain and desert golf have severe and unavoidable inherent limitations placed upon them.

Desert Mountain Outlaw is held out by Matt Ward as something really special.  It is full of way too much containment, too much sameness, little real creativity to be of the calibre he assigns it. Also, it is not of the calibre of design excellence as either of the two JWN design teams courses that I mentioned above. It does have a "core" layout going for it.

Considering all of that I really enjoy playing Nicklaus courses any time, any place (e.g. Right in Las Vegas,  Reflection Bay is certainly better than the Falls on-site and others around, pick your own favorite, though) and I have played a ton of Nicklaus.

SO

I think given:

Desert, mountains and the size of this project it will be very interesting.  I think the more architects, the better to get many different takes on these limited grounds for golf.

Nicklaus, Nicklaus + Dye, Dye if he'll do another in LV (He has 3 fine ones at Paiute), Brauer, Moran, Smyers, Rees Jones (Quintero is teriffic save the repeated use of drop shot par 3's for all you Rees-naysayers) and anyone else I certainly  don't intentionally slight by omission especially those never having done a true desert course.  (And of course Doak and the resident infallibles C & C if they'll do it).  The more the merrier and wow what a place it just might become.

Go for it, I just suggested that many architects are better than just one.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom

Good luck on this project. A 40 year buildout!!!! Wow.

You titled your thread as "Nicklaus/Dye Co-Design" even though construction is a year away. This course is only one part of the initial stages of this project. You should have titled your thread as "Coyote Springs"

Nevertheless, most here seem to desire a variety of architects to design the courses.I don't know if financing this project was "easier" given the Nicklaus name. I presume it helped sell the project.What is your connection with Nicklaus Design-architect or business operations?

Looking at residential or resort developments with more than 2 courses on a recent historical basis,there are 2 that stand out to me:

Desert Mountain with 6 private Jack Nicklaus Signature courses. Certainly, the JN name helped sell this project. The developer was close to JN from the success of Desert Highlands and took a chance that more buyers would be attracted just a few miles away to a multi-JN course development. He was right. It's also interesting to see the evolution of JN's designs over the years. He has certainly "softened" his recent courses there,perhaps to meet demands of the residents seeking less demanding courses.

PGA West with 6 courses by 5 architects, 2 or 3 public. JN has 2, 1 public,1 private;Palmer has 1 private; Dye has 1 public;Weiskopf has 1 private and Norman has 1-I'm not sure it's public or private. Certainly this project has been a success also.

Are the JN courses in Coyote Springs public? Is the JN/Dye course private?

From a business decision, I can not disagree with the Nicklaus choice. From an architectural viewpoint, I'd like to see different names. This is not to minimize the JN courses to be built there but rather a personal preference. I guess as the saying goes, "The rich get richer"

Steve

[Robert Thompson]

To be honest, I don't see what got Tom's back up so much. He posted a notice and then never followed up on any of the posts, only to return, get angry and leave. We never got answers to the questions about Jack and Pete working together, he never addressed any of the questions about the volume of courses or their scale or scope.
I don't know about this "treehouse circlejerk," but don't quite get why Mr. Solieau was so aggitated. Why not address the questions -- most of which were about his initial post? I didn't see anyone saying Nicklaus would create a piece of s**t design, just people asking why someone would hire a designer to do six courses in one area. I don't care who the designer was....

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

If you see Outlaw as just some extension of containment and sameness then you and I see things v-e-r-y differently.

Jack specifically designed Outlaw to be vastly different than the sheer bulk of "containment" oriented courses that proliferate in the desert and from which he himself designed at the same complex.

You might not have noticed but the interplay of the off-fairway areas are very accessible for those who spray a good bit. You also have a playability option from this type of desert terrain as opposed to the more penal / harsh elements you see with the main property and the likes of Geronimo and Chirichua, to name just two.

Let me also point out another factor you either didn't notice or simply ignored -- you can walk the property at Outlaw -- in fact -- it's encouraged. You also have less clutter from houses and the like because the surrounding property is BLM territory. If anything Outlaw provides the missing link that too often afflicts desert oriented courses -- they fail to work in concert with the existing site and often times are simply juxtaposed on top of the existing terrain. Outlaw doesn't do that by any stretch. Just take the opening hole -- here you have a wide fairway that encourages a range of options -- the green is nicely set on a slight diagonal and the fall off in the rear area is well done. Hit too aggressively and the golfer will find that such a benign hole does indeed have some serious teeth without overdosing through the likes of cacti or H20. This process follows many of the holes at Outlaw.

There's plenty of change of pace holes at Outlaw -- the 17th is one of the best I have ever played from Jack -- it's not simply a slog where massive tee shots need to be followed with massive high irons which Nicklaus mandated on a good number of earlier efforts.

Outlaw has also a very demanding but yet fair (I will concede the width at #10 is a bit narrow) set of putting surfaces. You have to really give pause when playing your approaches and I think Jack has done a fine job in trying to keep a proper balancing act between those who simply overpower courses and those who require a bit more touch.

Frankly, Desert Highlands is a solid layout but you do have this aspect of green levels (severe in several instances) that Jack has since tempered in his more recent efforts.

In regards to having a solo designer for multiple layouts I believe it comes down to the status of the facility. One that happens to be available to the public would likely be better served from a branding / mktg perspective to have different designers so that the varied nature of what each brings to the table can be maximized. It also helps spread play around the different layouts as you see today with Bandon.

[George Pazin]

To be honest, I don't see what got Tom's back up so much. He posted a notice and then never followed up on any of the posts, only to return, get angry and leave. We never got answers to the questions about Jack and Pete working together, he never addressed any of the questions about the volume of courses or their scale or scope.
I don't know about this "treehouse circlejerk," but don't quite get why Mr. Solieau was so aggitated. Why not address the questions -- most of which were about his initial post? I didn't see anyone saying Nicklaus would create a piece of s**t design, just people asking why someone would hire a designer to do six courses in one area. I don't care who the designer was....

Sadly, Robert, Mr. Soileau's reaction is all too familiar on this site. Question anything about certain figures, and you are sure to elicit some very heated responses.

I've seen many people criticism Tom D on this site over the years, for many different reasons, but he never threatens to take his ball and go home. Some people simply can't get over the reaction most have to Tom's courses, never stopping to think for a second that it might have something to do with the incredible product he offers, all the while sharing his passion with the rest of us. Heck, he even defended Mr. Nicklaus quite a bit on some of the other recent threads.

As Kelly says, it's almost laughable to react to criticism in such a manner, especially when one is so successful. It's also kind of sad, too.

Having said all that, I wish everyone the best of luck on a project of such an enormous scale. 'Course, it's desert golf, so I probably won't ever see it.

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm shocked the guy is such a cry baby.  He is trying to generate some PR and get some buzz going on this project and we bring up valid points which he can't or won't answer?  I think he now sees that the people on this site are not going to lay down and praise the fact the Jack Nicklaus is going to build 6 golf courses in the middle of the desert and think its the greatest development in the world.

He mentioned Pete and Jack bantering about but has said nothing about what they talked about.  Is it the routing or something else that is significant?

What we do know is that this development is going to be in some god awful spot and they are going to try and use the Desert Mountain formula.  

[SPDB]

I've seen many people criticism Tom D on this site over the years, for many different reasons, but he never threatens to take his ball and go home.

George - The second part is true, the first part is, for the most part, disingenuous. With the exception of GCGC, where has the criticism come?

[George Pazin]

I've seen many people criticism Tom D on this site over the years, for many different reasons, but he never threatens to take his ball and go home.

George - The second part is true, the first part is, for the most part, disingenuous. With the exception of GCGC, where has the criticism come?

I wrestled over whether or not to dredge this back up, but I didn't want Sean or anyone else to think I was duckin' him.

Sean, there has been a lot of criticism of Tom over the years, for you to deny that is way more disingenuous than my statement.

Just a few off the top of my head:

- Criticism that Tom's style is getting repetitive;
- criticism that Pac Dunes is too easy (said of more than a few of Tom's courses, actually);
- criticism that he uses the board to hype himself;
- tons of criticism of his reviews in The Confidential Guide...
- criticism of changes of ACGC;
- criticism of Quail Crossing, referred to as a dogtrack by a poster;
- criticism of Tumble Creek (I think - the Washington course) that it lacked something special.
- numerous criticisms of posts on here (heck, someone calls Tom arrogant at least a few times a year).

I could go on and on, but I don't need to dredge things up further. I even remember a thread where Tom specifically came on and asked people what they felt was his biggest mistakes have been. Maybe someone with more time can dig this one back up for you, Sean.

With virtually every comment that I can remember, Tom addressed the criticism, or simply laughed off the sillier stuff.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Criticism of TD buttboys;
criticism of TD arrogance; or extreme confidence as someone put it; (oops you had that one)
citicism of TD wardrobe;

He gets his fair share.  Doesn't whine about it or quit the site.

[Joel_Stewart]

The more I think about this guy and his whine and quit attitude the more I wish Ran would just delete this post.  He has no motive other than to promote his own development.

[Jim Nugent]

The more I think about this guy and his whine and quit attitude the more I wish Ran would just delete this post.  He has no motive other than to promote his own development.

Leave the post on.  This is a useful thread, IMO, for several reasons.  Also, maybe Tom will come back and post more in the future.  I'm sure he has insights that would interest many of us, if he chose to share them.