Who benefits from the growth of the game?

[Sean_A]

Well I never Rich!  Fancy not raising your glass to the Queen.  I have heard Scots are mean, but really.  Aren't you folks up in The Kingdom encouraged to refill?

I think you have been delving into too much history.  Things haven't been so bad since the Union.  Besides, Liz only makes it up to Scotland for holiday now and then.  In fact, she should be heading up there soon.  Don't forget to get yer bum kerbside (I just recently learned that Brits spell curb this way so I had to use it) and welcome the motorcade.

On a side note.  I noticed you used the phrase "our people's aspirations".  Do you think of yourself as Scottish/American, American/Scottish, British/American, American/British or none of the above?  

Ciao

Sean

[ForkaB]

Sean

I wouldn't expect a Brit living in the US to put his or her hand over their heart when the Star Spangled Banner was played.  Would you?

I'm an American who happens to live in Scotland, but all people who live under tyranny are "my" people.

[Alfie]

Rich,

(for other readers - the SGU administers the handicapping system for Scottish clubs and generally oversees Amateur golf in Scotland)

The Scottish Golf Union are, apparently, preparing to issue their findings of a seminar tour of the clubs, soon I hope. That should be interesting, although most likely disappointing ?

a) I still hold that people having other things to do with their time is not the MAIN reason for Scotland's decline in membership take-ups. But it IS one of the elements.
b) The guy I'm working for (age 52 with two adult childern) at present has two sets of clubs in his garage (his and his sons) so I threw him the question of how involved he was ? Short answer = I hardly play at all due to the time needed ! As a result, he doesn't join the local club because he can't justify the cost of the fees. So when he does play, he goes off on a wee trip to a better quality course.
This isn't just a coincidence - it's rife throughout the country ! I've asked the same question to many over the years and get the same reply ?
d) bar takings where I come from are hardly a minimal consideration at the end of each financial year ? Bar staff wages and poor sales mean shorter opening times and more thirsty, hacked off golfers at the end of their round ?
f) I would argue that clubs in general 'should' have adopted a more professional attitude to running their club a long time ago. I agree that the soul and character is being lost, but maybe that's more to do with our political correctness programme ?

Having said this, I think we're in "general" agreement on most of the points raised ? It's difficult to generalise Scottish golf (or anywhere else for that matter) because of the gulf between differnet clubs ; the Loch Lomonds to the middle and bottom ranges ?
Ultimately, it's the small clubs I fear for and can't print my true feelings for those who tout the "natural wasteage" theory as being OK and "part of life" ?
As for the Queen ? best keep her out of it - along with the Pope, Blair, Bush, Sadam, "Peter Dawson" and all the other non-golfers  

Alfie
(aye. I know Bush plays but how I separate him from Blair ?)

[Tony_Muldoon]

As for the Queen ? best keep her out of it - along with the Pope, Blair, Bush, Sadam, "Peter Dawson" and all the other non-golfers  

Amen to that.  oops

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Alfie

Look forward to seeing the SGU report when it comes out.  I'll stand by my opinions, but will be pleased to admit it if I am proved wrong!

PS--it was Sean who brought the Queen into this discussion.  I was just very surprised to hear from him that they toasted her and had a picture of her in their clubhouse.  I've never seen a picture of HM in any golf club in Scotland (including the one "Royal" one I belong to).  Have you?  Maybe they are there but pretty well hidden.....

Cheers

Rich

[Sean_A]

Tony, Rich & Alfie

You detected no sarcasm in the Queen remarks?  While I don't have any particular distaste to toasting the Queen, I don't truly look forward to a royal toast either.  After swearing an oath of allegiance, it would be slightly disingenuous not to toast her when asked.  

Ciao

Sean

[JESII]

Ultimately, it's the small clubs I fear for and can't print my true feelings for those who tout the "natural wasteage" theory as being OK and "part of life" ?

Alfie

Alfie,

I greatly appreciate your thoughts on this thread, very insightful. I also do not want you to think it is perfectly welcome for any golf club to go under, but to analyze your above quote I wonder why you think I was identifying only the "small clubs" for wasteage.

I would think any club set up to function in a manner beyond its means would be at risk. You may say a high end club has the monetary capacity to wade through its tough times, and I could not argue that, but in this area I see just as many nice private clubs selling or considering selling to the highest bidder as I do lower end clubs.

I think club management in general needs to have an awakening. Many that I see prefer to live beyond their means. How does a club determine its appropriate expenditure level both for today and in the future? I don't know. That's why I think many will suffer and the number of clubs will shrink, then profitability at the survivors (both high and low end) will increase because they have an increased membership base to work with.

Thoughts?

[Alfie]

Jes,

Wasn't having a pop at you, Jes. This natural wasteage "thing" has came up on other threads and to be honest, I detest the thought of ANY GOLF CLUB going down ! I live in a very rural area where we've had a history of clubs going defunct for one reason or another. When you read the final minutes, or hear first hand accounts from the elderly surviving members of a club - then it's nothing less than sad when your passion is taken away from you. Stuff the free market - save the wee clubs ?
Of course my hidden message will for ever contain protestations regarding the technology issue - which affects all things golf IMO !
"Established" clubs are not (IMO) set up in a manner beyond their means. They are continually enforced to endure (preventable) circumstances which "creates" a manner beyond their means ! So to answer your initial question re - growth....I don't think international growth in golf will do much for Scotland's smaller clubs. While the more affluent clubs would probably benefit through the tourism aspects and as they, more importantly, usually have ample funds for tinkering with their courses ?
I'm heartened by Rich's comments (American-Scot) relating to the spirit and soul he experiences in Scottish golf clubs and their memberships. That, for me, is what golf is all about. So I suppose a sustainable membership of say, 300 people who have at the least - some idea of what is expected from them......is far better than a growth scenario where an extra 100 hundred members may contain a few more undesirable arseholes ? And I'm no snob !
Some Scottish clubs deserve a good smack on the botty for past and present administrative errors - but the threat of complete extinction scares me somewhat !
But this is entirely a Scottish perspective. What growth will do for US golf, I have no opinion. We might sing from the same hymn sheet - but we're vastly differing cultures.
This technology race continues to harm golf and for what benefit ? A little more, then a little more distance ?
It's crazy. It amazes me why course owners and members clubs aren't shouting out for the stabilisation of the sport which might result in higher profitability from fewer course expenses ? aka the rollback IMO.

OT. I was working in Gullane today and what a beautiful day it was..... for those lucky buggers playing No 1 ! 6th December in Scotland ?

Alfie

[JESII]

Alfie,

Just read it once and will be back with more time, but for know, thank you.



By the way, I would be surprised if we did not sing from the same hymn sheet.


Jim

[Alfie]

Jes,

I too, am beat for time tonight. Will look in tomorrow again.
...........

Rich,

Love your sentiments / observations for club golf here in Scotland. And NO - I can't recall having ever seen HM Lizzy in a golfing environment ? Perhaps, maybe probably,  she exists in Larkhall Golf Club, near Glasgow ?
There's nothing wrong with being wrong.....I've worn out the tee shirt ?
..........

Tony,
"amen to that"  ?

Let's keep religion out of it too.

Alfie

[JESII]

Alfie,

You seem to be saying that technology in golf equipment has caused much of the expenditures clubs are now not able to handle. How does someone hitting the ball further and straighter hurt the club financials?

I would venture that properly researched and utilized agronomic technology would have a significant financial benefit at a modest "wee" club. To build a new tee 30 yards back on a hole is a minor expense, to revise a clubs maintenance methods might just free up a good deal of cash to cover other shortcomings.

Is there a superintendent consulting group (other than the USGA's program) that could profit from doing this type of analysis and recommendation?

Secondly, if you go back to one of my early posts on this thread you'll see that the number one priority in preserving the game the way it should be (as you and Rich Goodale speak of) is education. This education starts with parents to children and should continue with club pros and superintendent's and all the way through a clubs membership. It could be easy to keep out those few "arses" you might not want to join your club, and how about if the members of that new club brought in an overall great authentic golf mentality or personality, wouldn't that be a bonus?

I don't know, I'm with you as far as not wanting to see any club perish, but I also believe very strongly in the free market. Can those senior members you speak of take a more active role in passing on the virtues of a particular club to the younger generations? Is that a dream in this day and age? Would those efforts merely scare off more young people than they could attract? Maybe, but it might turn out to be worth it.

[ForkaB]

Jim and Alfie

One of the potentially goods things that the local Scottish government is at least professing to do is get every single child in Scotland a year or so of golf lessons.  So far, I haven't seen any action behind this rhetoric, but if there is it would be a very good thing.

[JESII]

No question.

Not only for the kids and their future interest in golf, but for the clubs that would be providing these lessons.

the PGA of America has something like a one free lesson month. I am not familiar with the details, but the concept is similar.



It seems that the greatest beneficiary from golfs growth might be the manufacturer's with the small clubs in there as well. Both would seem able to help in the education process if they want to, and the small clubs seemingly have the most to gain by doing some version of this.

I wonder what steps are being taken to educate local children about the game.

[Lou_Duran]

Rich,

I am glad that the Scot gov has resolved all important matters such the economy, employment, education, health care, public safety, etc. that it can now begin to address the more mundane.  Please keep the doled golf lessons thing to yourself lest our bureaucrats here get more ideas.  Since things are going so well there, perhaps we can outsource our government to ya'll.

BTW, has the anguished teenager with no future found his way out of Aberdour?  Maybe he can head the new Scot golf endeavor.

As to who benefits from the growth of the game?  How about those folks who benefit from an improved environment?  I am thinking specifically sites in CA (Industry Hills), Montana (the Nicklaus course on the former Anaconda-sp- mines), Victoria National, and the two new clubs on the NJ side of the Hudson River.

How about the folks who work at these courses?  How about vendors and manufacturers and their employees, and on and on.        

[JESII]

Patrick,

I hate it when people do not answer a direct question of mine so I apologize for the delay in getting back to you on this one.

JES II,

Why does the game need to grow ?

That's what I want to know.[/color]

Does growth have any impact on the intrinsic values of the game ?

Not sure, I think it can. Growth would need to be clarified. I know you had a go with someone on here about defining growth in this context and I'm not sure there was a resolution. I would call growth an expansion of the participation numbers. Players, rounds, courses, equipment revenue, club (private and public) revenue etc...Can one or more of them drop while others increase? Yes, does this mean growth? I don't know, probably certain permutations yes.

So with that my answer to your question is yes, as a secondary reaction to attempted growth. When people are brought into the game under pretenses different than you might have they have a different view and understanding. When enough of this happens and a generation passes brining a large percentage of people into administrative positions at clubs and organizations that came into the game with differing views than you might have, they can now change the game on you.[/color]