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Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 16
Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2005, 08:45:45 AM »
Jim Urbina had lunch with Press Maxwell in Denver about 10 years ago, a couple of years before Press died.  I know that Jim asked him pointedly if he or his father used stakes or survey equipment when building their greens, and Press responded that they did it all by eye.

Several of the guys who work for me can build a green with a reasonably large dozer and tell me by feel how much slope there is in a certain area ... whether it's 1% or 3% or more.  They are not 100% accurate so we always have a transit handy to check the grades and make sure they aren't too severe by my lax standards.  But I prefer to do it that way:  make the green fit by eye, then check the grades to make sure it works.

The problem I have with the detailed-plan method is that it's easy to build a green which "works" and isn't too severe, but a lot of them don't blend into the surrounds because the architect can't visualize that part while drawing the plan.  Anybody can draw a plan with a bunch of numbers on it, but it's amazing to me to see that someone built great greens that way.

TEPaul

Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2005, 09:22:13 AM »
TomD:

There's a green sketch with numbers all over it by Flynn posted above. I'm not too sure why any of us are assuming this was something Flynn just drew up and then took out in the field and built. Maybe that drawing was the other way around---maybe the green was built and that drawing is just the grades that were shot after it was completed. On the other hand, why would they shoot grades in little square quadrants that over the entire green were 5x5 square?

Kyle Harris

Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2005, 10:01:54 AM »
Chris,

I was hoping you'd pop on here. Didn't know that about those diagrams.

Was Maxwell a by sight of the eye kind of guy?

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2005, 10:16:34 AM »
Ross did very detailed green contour drawings.

At Athens CC he did a drawing for each hole and a separate drawing for each green marked in feet off a stipulated high spot.

He did the same for greenside bunker contours.

Most of his separate green sketches also had indications of how edges transitioned to the surrounds.

Bob

Chris_Clouser

Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2005, 11:49:26 AM »
Kyle,

I believe he did it all by sight at the green area.  

Chris

wsmorrison

Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2005, 12:41:39 PM »
Bob or whomever,

How did the greens get built on courses Ross is known not to have visited?

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2005, 12:57:00 PM »
Dunno.

Brad Klein. Calling Brad Klein.

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -15
Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2005, 09:10:38 PM »
Wayne,
The inconsistency in quality of the "topo" courses that Ross did might answer your question.  A lot depended on "who" ended up building the golf course.  Sometimes it was a crew from Ross (remember he at one point had as many as 600 people working on his courses).  However, many times is was the course owner building it on their own.  His drawings provided enough detail that gave the crews a fighting chance to do something good.    
Mark
« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 07:45:05 AM by Mark_Fine »

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2005, 07:09:23 AM »
Ross must have known that many of his courses were going to built by locals and without construction supervision from anyone in his organization. So one of the reasons for the remarkable detail of his Athens drawings was probably that they were his only chance to have input as to final details. But that's just me speculating.

Bob  

wsmorrison

Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2005, 07:37:24 AM »
Mark,

The reason I brought up his mailed-in efforts was because of their quality which was probably less inconsistent and more consistently average to poor.  I haven't seen the number of Ross courses that you or Bob have seen but I was curious about the process of designing and building greens sight (and site) unseen.  

Maybe Ross had a drawer full of template greens and instructed his crews or whomever to, "put Green 22 here on this first hole, Green 87b on the second...."  ;D

Ross's name was on a lot of work he really had no clue about as far as details goes--assuming green design/construction is regarded as a detail; it is not to mel.  Perhaps this is not entirely unknown today amongst the guys with 20-40 courses in various stages at any given time.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2005, 07:38:59 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -15
Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2005, 07:48:02 AM »
Wayne,
Like Bob and I both said, the drawings gave the crews working on the courses a fighting chance.  At the end of the day, they probably did as they pleased and at times you can easily tell.  It shows how important supervision of the work is regardless of the level of detail in the drawings.  Doak alluded to this above as well.  Field changes are always necessary.
Mark

Neil_Crafter

  • Total Karma: 7
Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2005, 07:58:43 PM »
All the early green plans I have seen are not true contour plans, but as has been well described in the above posts, use spot levels, hatching or flow lines to get across the message of the surface character. My question is this, when was the earliest use of true contour lines and who used them? Any ideas?

I have one possible candidate, the German architect Bernhard von Limburger. A green plan of his for the Braunschweig course in Germany, dating from November 1953, shows green, surrounds and bunkers with contour lines (half metre intervals). A picture of this plan is in the article on von Limburger in GA7 issue of Golf Architecture magazine.
Neil

wsmorrison

Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2005, 08:19:08 PM »
Neil,

Not to detract from this topic, but a few weeks ago I signed up for your wonderful magazine and back issues.  I am wondering how long before I can expect shipment to the USA?  Looking forward to seeing in person what so many have been raving about.  Good show!

Best,
Wayne

TEPaul

Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2005, 07:44:08 AM »
" My question is this, when was the earliest use of true contour lines and who used them? Any ideas?"

Neil:

That's a very good question. As far as I know that question may've been touched on in the past on this website but I don't think any real research was done on it.

Pretty amazing it hasn't as after-all how important is really good green design in both length, width but primarily internal slope and contouring? Really important, I'd say.

For instance how did the world class slope and contour greens of PVGC and Merion East actually get designed and built in the early teens? How about NGLA's world class greens before the teens?

As far as I know green design and contour drawings of those courses' greens never existed. And, come to think of it that may also explain why a number of the greens at NGLA, Merion East and PVGC too were altered a good deal by their original architects (and in the case of PVGC others early on after Crump's death at 46) (This is actually very interesting--eg #1 green was never altered, nor #2, #3 was slated to be slightly but I don't believe it was, #4 never, #5 by Crump who didn't like the look of its shape, #6 was, as was #7, #8, #9 bigtime, #11 bigtime, #12 was undergoing alteration at his death, #17 was altered big-time, and of course the famous "pimple" was removed from #18 by JABrown. The great on-going green mystery of PVGC was who actually built or perhaps even designed the green details of #12 finished product, #13, #14 and #15?. Was it the Wilsons of Merion, or perhaps their Man Flynn (letter from H. Wilson says Flynn will take over in Spring of 1919 for 3-4 days a week), or perhaps even constant Crump collaborator and constant fellow "shot tester", PVGC's pro, club-maker, pretty much sole construction foreman right on through, by way of St Andrew's Shinnecock and St David's, George Govan? One thing is certain, George Govan worked on the course every day beginning in March 1914  through the work of the 1921 Advisory Committee. In early 1914 Govan and his family and Crump were the only ones who actually lived at PV).  ;)

Some say Colt was the first to really do comprehensive architectural drawings. He probably was but if his drawings of PVGC are a good example the green design was really amorphous in his drawings. The best he did there on green construction was an occasional text remark such as "raise right side of green", and in only one instance he apparently left a cross-section drawing behind but that may not have even been him.

Recently Paul Turner who may be one of the best authorities on the details of Colt said he thinks Colt just staked greens in the field but on a course like PVGC there's no way he could've done that for pretty obvious reasons---ie when he left for the last time most all of the course wasn't close to that kind of input.

It looks to me like Ross may've started doing comprehensive green drawings around the end of WW1 as did Flynn.

Alison did some beautiful free-hand drawing for some greens at PVGC in 1921 with a ton of textual instruction and his usual point a, b, c, d, with numerical relationship fall et al.

It's a great question and the good researchers on here should go to town and see how early they can actually document comprehensive green contour drawings or instructions etc. And not just assume, actually produce the evidence.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 08:46:17 AM by TEPaul »

Tim Liddy

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2005, 07:51:30 AM »
TE Paul

Fascinating.

Is there any way to see one of these Alison drawings on PVGC greens? They sound remarkable.

paul cowley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Detailed Green Contour Drawings?
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2005, 07:57:41 AM »
Neil... I agree with Wayne [nothing new] and feel the previous issues I've recieved have been excellent....so much that although you have been sending them to me for free, I sent in my subsciption any way ;)....good marketing for this dummy.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca