Stanley Thompson's specialty (obsession?) with par threes.

[JNC Lyon]

I played Thompson's masterpiece about one month ago, and I thought it was a wonderful collection of holes, and it included a few neat par threes, which there were five of. This struck me as unusual, as I have played half a dozen courses with five threes (regulation courses, that is), and maybe one or two others have been of high quality.

Anyway, I did not give it much thought until flipping through a profile of Highlands Links on golfti.com, the number two course in Canada, and I realized that this course also had five threes.  What a coincidence! Then I remembered that Banff had five threes, and upon further review I found Jasper and Capilano also had five threes.

I came back to this today, as the golfti.com profile of Chateau Montibello yielded that this is another Thompson course with five threes. Six courses by the same architect with five threes, five of which might be the top five courses in Canada!! Are there any other courses by Thompson which have this trait? I know he had a specialty with threes, but was it his rule/philosophy to build all of his courses with five threes? Why???

A side note, RTJ's Durand Eastman in Rochester, built shortly after working for or possibly with Thompson, also had five par threes originally.

[Ian Andrew]

JNC,

St. George's, Galt, Highland CC (in london), Kawartha and (original) Summit all have 5.

But other great works like Catarqui, Oshawa, Islington, Peterborough, (original) Cutten, Westmount, all have four.

He was not a prolific writer, so it is hard to get much of a sense of his desires for an ideal golf course. Most of the writing concern playability and (funny enough) maintenance issues.

To finally answer your question of did he look for five par 3's. I personally don't think so. I think it had more to do with the challenge of the terrain dictating an extra pr three to make the routing work.

Jasper, Banff, (especially) Capilano, Highlands, Montebello, and even to a degree St. george's are all on some pretty dramatic pieces of land. I think this is a bigger factor.

He definately tried to place the par threes on the most dramatic spot in the property, when he could. If you follow his great courses, this becomes a common theme, but like most architects the threes are sometimes the link between great land for longer holes.

#12 and 13 always struck me as the link between at Jasper for example

Westmount has one of his greatest collection of long holes (all are very good to excellent, but the threes are definately average at best. They feel like the links between great longer holes.

Highlands has no links, but that is because the routing follows the tillable land. He could not move soil like other jobs because the project only had one or two pieces of equipment (the rest was done by hand). That dictated his routing, and that is why it is one of his best.

May be the best ones to look at are his routings on very gentle land (specially if he had lots of land), to see what he choose to do.

As a funny note: 6 of the course I have listed have a pr three starting the back nine. That's an uncommonly large number too.

[Jason Topp]

North Oaks also has five par threes

[Dan Kelly]

Five at North Oaks, too (St. Paul, Minn.).

[Jason posted while I did my hole-by-hole mental tour!]

[Jeff_Mingay]

It certainly is interesting that the five "giant" Thompson courses - St. George's, Jasper, Banff, Capilano, and Highlands Links - have five par-threes apiece.

Stanley Thompson did describe his idea of an "ideal course" during a presentation to the Detroit area green-keepers association in 1949. Curiously, his "ideal course" has five par-threes too!

#1 340 yds par 4 stroke hole 16
#2 400 yds par 4 stroke hole 8
#3 460 yds par 5 stroke hole 14
#4 385 yds par 4 stroke hole 12
#5 145 yds par 3 stroke hole 18
#6 530 yds par 5 stroke hole 2
#7 415 yds par 4 stroke hole 6
#8 220 yds par 3 stroke hole 10
#9 430 yds par 4 stroke hole 4

#10 355 yds par 4 stroke hole 13
#11 490 yds par 5 stroke hole 9
#12 170 yds par 3 stroke hole 17
#13 445 yds par 4 stroke hole 1
#14 590 yds par 5 stroke hole 5
#15 195 yds par 3 stroke hole 15
#16 370 yds par 4 stroke hole 3
#17 245 yds par 3 stroke hole 7
#18 475 yds par 5 stroke hole 11

6,660 yds par 72

[Tyler Kearns]

Another prevalent theme to Thompson's one-shot hole designs; is a penchant for including a monster (230-240 yd range - 16 at Capilano, 8 at Uplands), and a short pitch hole fraut with danger (Bad Baby at Jasper).

TK

[Jay Cox]

I played Thompson's masterpiece about one month ago . . . I did not give it much thought until flipping through a profile of Highlands Links . . .

Stupid question:  What course are you referring to as Thompson's masterpiece?  And does everyone agree on what is Thompson's masterpiece?  
I would've picked Highlands (over Banff and Jasper) but I haven't played St. George's or Capilano.

[Ryan Crago]

Cataraqui fits with Tyler's pattern - the 15th being the 220yd uphill monster, and the 12th - shortish (175ish) very downhill par 3 - pond short left - premium on club selection.

[Tyler Kearns]

Jay,

I believe JNC Lyon is referring to St. George's. Thompson's masterpiece? I think the general concensus has narrowed down his efforts to the "Big 5".

TK

[JNC Lyon]

Oops!!  Sorry, I mistakenly did not include the course name.  Yes, it was St. George's I played, which as Ian Andrew mentions is on a relatively dramatic piece of land.  It is true that holes 3, 6 (This is still a very good short three), 13, and 16 were links to better long holes  (2,4,5,7,12,14,,15, and 16 is an excellent collection of golf holes) but Number 8 almost seems like a centerpiece hole, and I find it a great hole.  It fits the description of the long three that Tyler Kearns suggested.

Ian Andrew:
Did you think the best way to attack a dramatic piece of property is with five threes???  In fact, I played a course by DL3's group called Windermere outside of Atlanta, probably built on the most severe property I've ever seen for a golf course, and it had five par threes.  Does this theory hold true more often than not?  I tend to think it might.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Cataraqui fits with Tyler's pattern - the 15th being the 220yd uphill monster, and the 12th - shortish (175ish) very downhill par 3 - pond short left - premium on club selection.

Ryan,
The 8th at Cat is short as well and has a more challenging green to hit, in my mind.

I think Thompson's masterpiece is HL, so I guess it is not clear cut.

[Ryan Crago]

 

.

[Ian Andrew]

Ryan,

The 8th at cataraqui was part of an original hole played from below (from the right). It, along with 7 and 9 are not Thompson greens (they predate his course). He withdrew from the project when they stopped paying his bills.

I still like 8 and Catarqui.


Ben,

I agree with your comment that St. George's and Highland Links should be held together as two (different) examples of his genius. Not recognizing one  is doing Stanley a diservice.


JNC,

it is easier to route par threes on any land, so on a severe site you will route more threes if you have difficulty fitting in holes. Your original premice about Stanley seeking excellent one shotters is still on the mark.


Jeff M,

Do you have a copy of that speach because that would be a crutial piece of information that I have not seen. It would go down as my biggest must see to do with Thompson. I have visited a lot of clubs and opened a lot of boxes in recent time looking for writings. I have found a few, but not the "holy grail" (a notebook) which I believe is out there.

[T_MacWood]

Sleepy Hollow near Cleveland has four par-3's, although the par-4 17th may have fallen into the catagory of par-3.5. Its a little over 300 yards today, but originally was around 260 to 270 yards (dogleg) or 240 tee to green. Based on Jeff's ideal course, Thompson may have favored that length hole.

I seem to recall (in his writing on the subject) Colt concentrated on finding par-3's early in the process...some have thought he may have been a big influence on Thompson.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

I don't think there's any doubt Colt was a big influence on Thompson.

Stanley was a young caddy at Toronto GC when Colt came to town to design a new course for the club. And, his eldest brother Nicol was the head pro at Hamilton when Colt returned to Canada two years later to design the Ancaster course.

Certainly, the Thompson's were paying attention to Colt's methods.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Ian, Jeff et al:

Have you seen "About Golf Courses"
Their construction and upkeep by Stanley Thompson & Co?

I will bring a copy with me to the GCA gathering.

[Jeff_Mingay]

I have seen a copy, Dick. But not for a few years.

I'd be interested to take another look, for sure.

[Ian Andrew]

JNC Lyon,

Finally the answer, or at least the answer the day he wrote this. His thoughts may have changed after the document bwas written.

From the booklet "About Golf Courses Their Construction and Upkeep by Stanley Thompson.

Page 12 begins....

"There should be three or four short holes - five is perhaps one too many, as the remaining holes are apt to be unbalanced. They should be intersperced - not, however, near the begining or the end. In the former case they tend to congest the course, while in the latter the player who happens to be down is discriminated against. There should be six or seven good two shotters, with alternate tees for lengthening or shortening of the holes as the ground is hard or soft or the direction of the wind, to preserve their values. The rest should be apportioned between pitch and iron shots for the second. Beware the three shotter unless there is some natural feature demanding them.

It continues onto starting holes and a few other comments in addition.

[Tyler Kearns]

Ian,
 
Is the booklet "About Golf Courses and Their Construction & Upkeep" more comprehensive in terms of Stanley Thompson's design philosophy than the chapter "General Thoughts on Golf Course Design" (1923) reprinted in The Toronto Terror. Your quote appears word for word in the latter, are they one in the same?

TK

[Tom_Doak]

I have used five par-3's on several courses myself.  I don't do it just to make connections in difficult terrain, but also when the property has a combination of terrain and boundary issues ... see either course at Stonewall.

Flynn used five threes a lot on his Philadelphia-area courses, but not much elsewhere that I've seen.

Generally, making a routing with five par-3's is just much easier to pull off.

[Robert Thompson]

I think one of the fascinating things about Thompson's use of par 3s is that he clearly focused on them as part of his routing, as opposed to simply using them to link great par fours or fives. In Canada currently, several of the architects seem to be guilty of viewing par threes as mere cogs for the rest of the course. That means great par fours often come at the expense of the par threes. Thompson didn't seem to do this and he did seem to have a criteria for the one shot holes in mind when he started. Many (Jasper, HL, St. Thomas, Cataraqui, Capilano) feature one very long three (220+), which also seemed to be part of Thompson's desired mix.
I often wonder how hard it is for an architect to focus on all of the holes that make up a course without making concessions in order to have a few outstanding ones. Thompson seemed to look for consistency, as opposed to blowing it all on a couple of amazing holes at the expense of the others.