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George Pazin

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Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2005, 05:07:37 PM »
Huck, there are plenty of other things that are higher priorities in my golf life. :)

P.S. You guys must be better putters than you claim. I guess the quest for more strokes is right up there with the quest for the Holy Grail. :)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 05:09:05 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2005, 05:11:10 PM »
George:  oh that's to be expected.  But I have no such.  Screw my kids or my job or world hunger or the like - YOU are my top priority.   ;D

shivas:  done.  Sticking with folks with whom we've experienced Sand Hills, I'll take Huntley, Mucci and Christian Greco.  We'll own you.  Not that we ever got to do a scramble - and damn that would have been fun - but 28 for 9 holes would be kid's stuff.

 ;D

Mickey Boland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2005, 05:12:38 PM »
Mickey, if either (a) the guy is capable of rattling off 6 birdies in 12 holes or (b) you're capable of rattling off 6 or more bogeys or worse in 12 holes, you did the right thing.  It ain't over till it's over and I've seen stupider things that losing from 5 up with 12 to play.  After all, you won 5 in row, and you only did it in 5 holes...why couldn't he win 5 in a row in 12 or less?

Well, those thoughts were kinda in my mind also.  Don't let a guy up when he's down, etc.  

Thanks, Shiv, I feel better now. ;D

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2005, 05:16:46 PM »
Mickey --

Think of it from the point of view of the guy who was 5 down. When your opponent starts giving you 4-footers, he's basically saying a.) he feels sorry for you, and b.) he thinks you're no threat. Both are kind of insulting.

You did the right thing.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2005, 05:20:38 PM »
Screw my kids or my job or world hunger or the like - YOU are my top priority.   ;D

Hey, I didn't know I told you my wife's wedding vows!

 ;D

Shiv, on my scramble teams, I usually hit early and putt late, so we'd work well together.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2005, 05:21:44 PM »
Mickey:

I tend to agree with shivas and Rick on this - you did the right thing and a four footer is a LONG concession - but I also fully understand why this nags at you.  It would nag at me as well.  I think it comes down to "not wanting to win that way" that I postulated way back in reply #2 in this thread.

I hate winning holes with missed short putts.

That's likely why I don't win as many matches as I might.

But it's also why matches rarely nag at me.   ;)

And here comes the atom bomb in this discussion:  I'd rather lose and feel good then win and feel bad.

I wonder how many will say I'm full of shit about this... I bet at least a few.  But I swear it's true.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 05:23:48 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2005, 05:30:58 PM »
Huck --

I don't think you're full of it -- I know what you're saying. But there are degrees of feeling bad, no?

In general, I'd rather win, even if it means feeling a little bad for the guy I beat, as long as I can look myself in the mirror and say I played the match honorably.

If I did something during the match that I was ashamed of, then the win would be meaningless.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tom Huckaby

Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2005, 05:37:42 PM »
Rick:

I concur with every word of that.  I just tend to feel bad for other people WAY too much.  I feel bad for myself, too... but I swear defeating a friend - when he takes it hard and/or gets pissed at it - is not fun for me, no matter how honorably I acted or how well I played.  I've lost too much and acted like an idiot too much on the other side, so I have a lot of empathy.  If the opponent is someone I don't know, as long as I behave honorably a win's a win.

Sean - I don't like to lose money - who does?  But the fact it makes one overly serious, and might cause one to do things he wouldn't in a more friendly match, is why I rarely play for any big stakes, not head to head anyway.  Four man games are a different story - always fun - but I don't go over my means there either.  Anyway I swear no amount of money won would make me overcome feeling like a prick if I gave no gimmes all day and called rules violations and resorted to overt gamesmanship or any of the other things I'd be ashamed to do.

TH
« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 05:42:48 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2005, 05:49:20 PM »
Sean - you heard about my body-building triumph.  Awe shucks, I was trying to keep that quiet.   ;)

Ok, I guess I shouldn't go overboard with this - hell with friends to whom one constantly gives crap, anything goes.  And those small bets wouldn't change things - in fact you're right, the effect would be to make the friend slip some silver under that 3 footer just for principle.   ;D

I guess the bottom line for me is more that if a friend gets really pissed losing, that kinda ruins it for me.  The games described above don't cause any anger - so anything goes.

TH

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2005, 05:53:01 PM »
Huck, I was playing with a few friends 8 or 9 years ago and they actually had to call off the bet ON THE 3RD HOLE because they were already too p-o'd at each other.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2005, 05:56:41 PM »
shivas is right - the golf gods are NOT to be messed with.  And that is a flaunting of them, giving putts out of mercy, assuming you're so far ahead you can't lose.

The wise shivas has settled this - Mickey not only did you do the right thing, you ought not to let it nag at you.

Fine learning today.   ;D

George - I too have had crap like that happen - including one famous time at Pebble Beach of all places where an argument started in 11 fairway and has yet to end to this day.  The round took place at least 5 years ago.  I was just an impartial witness, thank god.

TH

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2005, 11:38:29 PM »
Not to stray too far off topic but...

the mention of women golfers (not conceding putts) and scrambles reminded me of what I have discovered as the genuine golden ticket when it comes to competing in a scramble...

A woman on the team.  My little sister plays college golf and while she won't have a career on the LPGA tour (or Futures tour for that matter) she can consistently hit it 230-260 yards.  Put that distance playing from the women's tees on the average scramble course and you won't believe the kind of places you will be playing your approach shots from.  Its absurd (what is also absurd is the pure number of scrambles she gets invited to).  I am sure around our club now, that if scramble teams were chosen like pickup basketball games, she would always be "first pick".

Sorry for the stray, back to relevant discussion like when is someone going to invite George to a scramble so he can help shoot a 58?

Keith.


I forgot all about that one.  I've played in a few scrambles with a good woman player on the team, or at least one who could fairly regularly get her driver out there from 200-240 yards off the tee (for some reason there are a lot more women than men who are really solid and straight and relatively long off the tee but can't play the rest of the game worth shit)  There were several holes that us guys just had her drive first, and if she nailed a good one we didn't even bother driving, because we'd have to knock it about 390 to do any better!

The mention of handicaps and scrambles reminds me of the fact that although I occasionally hear about scramble formats where the team gets some piece of the total or average handicaps of the members, I've never actually played in one.  What do you need to score to win one of those, a 44?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #62 on: December 08, 2005, 11:50:30 PM »
Early in a match I will concede a 3 to 4 footer if it requires me to make my up to 6 foot putt to win the hole. I want that pressure and I want to prove I can handle the pressure to acclimate me to the pressure coming later in the match.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Blasberg

Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #63 on: December 08, 2005, 11:58:06 PM »
Early in a match I will concede a 3 to 4 footer if it requires me to make my up to 6 foot putt to win the hole. I want that pressure and I want to prove I can handle the pressure to acclimate me to the pressure coming later in the match.


Garland:

Interesting strategy, that if we ever play against each other I'll be sure to remember after my 4 footer is conceded for par and you lip out your 6 footer for birdie . . . leaving you that ever tricky 3 footer for par and the halve . . . you're putting that one 9 out of 10 times.  

I never concede a potential winning putt unless I'm out of the hole.  

But then again I've not gotten any better since the age of 20 so what do I know . . .  ;)
 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2005, 09:10:07 AM »
I'll start conceding relevant 3-4 footers to poor putters as soon as they start giving me 250 yard tee shots in the fairway ;D
What's the difference?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2005, 01:27:36 PM »
It is crucial to, if possible, defeat your opponnent as quickly as possible because many match play tournaments are contested over numerous rounds and can be very tiring, physically and mentally. In the US Amateur, for example, the finalists will play ten rounds (including two practice rounds) during the week.

My personal rule, taught to me by a wily old Irish golf professional, is to never give a birdie putt or a putt for a win, regardless of the length.

I talk with my opponents on the first tee and let them know this so that they do not assume any putt is good. ( Also, I expect to have to make every putt, so as to always be prepared to have to.)

There are exceptions, of course. This past summer, I was in a tight match in the quarters and made a blubbering six on the par four eighth. My opponent was on in two, but sixty feet away with  a steep uphill putt.

Had he lagged close I probably would have conceded the hole. However, his first putt came up to the Crest of the hole and went back to its original position. ( Think Stewart at Olympic.)

As I assessed the situation, I realized that the hole was cut in a rediculous place, a fact confirmed when the tournament director stepped near to me and said "I think I goofed on this one." Just then my opponent's next putt did exactly what it did on his first one. Now I was stuck, I couldn't concede the hole. But after his next try I gave him his putt for the tie. I couldn't give him the hole, but no way was I going to let him lose it, under the circumstances. (I won the match in 21 holes.)

Turns out the players in the match behind us both hit the green in two near to where my opponent's ball had been, surveyed the hole location, and agreed on a half. The hole was then relocated four feet farther back, which solved the problem for subsequent matches.





"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2005, 04:03:48 PM »
That is a very interesting example. Congratulations on being such a fine player and congratulations to everyone else for not piling onto the USGA here.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2005, 04:23:52 PM »
Jim -- A similar situation came up during the member-guest at Northland Country Club last summer. The hole was cut in the back right corner on the 14th green, on the very edge of a slope, and on a day when the green was as fast as they can get it.

After someone on each team in our foursome had putted up to the lip of the cup, and then rolled about five feet back down the slope, we turned to each other and said, "This is ridiculous. Good-good." And off we went.

I don't even remember who won the match, but I do know we might still be there if we hadn't shown each other some mercy.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2005, 11:16:54 PM »
Messrs Benham and Nacarrato ----- no, not the Goldens, Mike hasn't taught Sheila how to play yet!  I am playing with the lad tomorrow however.

tomgoutman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sportsmanship - Running up the score and not conceding putts
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2005, 01:17:15 PM »
Who is it that once said, "a conceded put is an arrangement between two golfers, neither one of whom can put"?