South Africa vs Australia

[T_MacWood]

Which nation has produced better golf designs? I think the general consensous would be Australia. If that is true, why? If it isn't true, what does S. Africa have over Australia.

[Mike_Clayton]

Tom.

A big question but Alister MacKenzie coming here (Australia) had to be a huge difference.
He found a great constructor - Morcom - and a partner - Alex Russell - who understood what he wanted
There were no great courses before he came and only his partner Alex Russell did a good one after he left.
That was the case until only very recently when we have seen a few really good new ones.

 Most of our best courses are over-rated though and most were better 60 years ago than they are now.

[James Bennett]

And the sand-belts in Australia have a vital ingredient to make great courses more probable - Sand!

James B

[Jim Nugent]

Tom.

 Most of our best courses are over-rated though and most were better 60 years ago than they are now.

Such as?

[Chris Kane]

Jim, we'll start with Metropolitan, Commonwealth, Yarra Yarra and Royal Melbourne (East).

Mike will be even more ruthless.

[Mark_Guiniven]

You might also ask why South Africa is arguably the better golfing nation, if it is true their courses all suck.

A quick count of major championships reveals South Africa with 18 titles (Player 9, Locke 4, Els 3, Goosen 2).

Australia only has 14 (Thomson 5, Graham 2, Norman 2, Ferrier 1, Nagle 1, Grady 1, Baker-Finch 1, Elkington 1).

[Mike_Clayton]

Jim.

I won't be as ruthless as Chris suggests but Royal Melbourne West and Kingston Heath are not over-rated -and they are our two best old courses.
A study of the old photos and of the untouched holes will reveal only one conclusion - that the tampering has not been overly successful.

There have been some legitimate reasons for some alterations.
Metropolitan lost 9 old holes to a school in the late fifties and a freeway went through The Lakes in Sydney.Yarra Yarra has been hurt by encroaching houses but others were altered in the name of technology and tournament golf.

We are doing three new back nine holes at the moment at Metropolitan and the task is to make the Dick Wilson holes of 1960 feel like the original front nine of the nineteen-twenties.

Fortunatley Barnbougle is a public course with a committee of one - and no chance of holding a big tournament or having a freeway going through it.

[T_MacWood]

I don't get the impression that all the courses in S. Africa suck. Unfortunately we have very contributors who are from S.Africa or have been to S. Africa (and know very much about golf architecture). After reading some of the impressions of Bobby Locke, Hugh Alison, Dr. Charles Murray and others, there are a number of first class courses or at least there were at that time.

Some of the better courses I've read which were compared with the best around the world: Durban, Humewood, East London, Royal Cape, Royal Port Alfred, Houghton, Maccauvlei, and Glendower.  

I'm not sure what the state of modern golf architecture is down there, with the Gary Player influence gold only knows.

[TEPaul]

"I'm not sure what the state of modern golf architecture is down there, with the Gary Player influence gold only knows."

Tom:

I'd have to say you've always been the king of typos on this website but that one above is most interesting. Or were you actually thinking of South African diamonds (as in "hidden gems"?).  

It also seems you are consistently fond of just listing a constant series of little known names, whether they be people, golf architects or golf courses. But I think that's a good thing on this website. At least many of us can now say "we've heard of them".

[Bob_Huntley]

I have not played any of the newer venues in South Africa but I believe one can guage the overall quality of the offerings by considering this. If the Durban Country Club is the ne plus ultra in the country, where in my considered opinion it wouldn't make the top fifty or sixty in the United States, what does it say of the rest?

Bob

[Philip Gawith]

I think Mike Clayton's answer has to be the correct one, inasmuch as such a large portion of Australia's prestige, classic courses are linked to Mackenzie's visit.

Bob - you have seen more golf courses than I have, so I respect your view, but DCC does make Tom Doak's Gourmet 30 in TCG, so I suspect he would be at least one well qualified person who would disagree with your assessment.

I was actually at DCC this past Sunday. I promise to post some pictures, although unfortunately the weather was pretty dire so they are not great.

But there is no doubt that the course has a couple of memorable holes, notably 3,5,8 and 17,18 which I think justify its superior ranking.

Mark: South Africa's golfing prowess is down to climate and general sporting prowess. If there was a correlation between GCA and prowess, there would be more good Scots golfers.

Of the list of older courses Tom M quotes, I have played, DCC, Houghton, Glendower and Royal Cape. I don't think any of the last three courses are in any way exceptional, though admittedly I was a total GCA illiterate when I played them, as opposed to current levels of sophistication.

I have never heard it suggested that Maccauvlei or Royal Port Alfred are that good. Humewood especially, and maybe East London,  have stronger claims on being notable courses. The 2007 project is to try and bring some photos of those last two to this forum.

When I have some more time I will post separately a few stats on recent golf course development in SA. I think about 26 new courses have been built in the last 5 years or so. These have overwhelmingly been estate developments ( a new development in SA) and at least 80% have been designed by two architects - Gary Player and Peter Matkovitch.

I am not persuaded that many of these modern courses are up to much architecturally, though I think some of them would be worth playing if only for the scenic splendour (eg Oubaai, designed by Ernie Els, which has a Cape Kidnappers type feel from the pictures; Arabella, designed by Peter Matkovich, near Cape Town, and Leopard Creek - in the East, near the Kruger Park, which is supposed to be South Africa's answer to Augusta - at least in the conception of Johann Rupert, who built it. It is a Gary Player design).

[T_MacWood]

Hugh Alison would also disagree with Bob's assessment in general of South African golf. And there isn't much doubt Alison was a well traveled and astute judge.

In his opinion Maccauvlei was the prize winner, followed by Humewood. Others he thought were very good included Durban and East London, inland Glendower (which I believe he designed) and Royal Johannesburg. I have no idea what its present situation is, but Royal Port Alfred looked very good a half century ago--well bunkered and dunesy. In fact its difficult to say how any of these courses survived over the years.

[Mark_Guiniven]

I don't get the impression that all the courses in S. Africa suck.

I know you don't Tom, but as a kiwi it's my sworn duty to have both springboks and wallabies on at any opportunity. 'Underachieving Downunder' kills two birds with one stone. As you say, there aren't many Africans (or Afrikans for that matter) on GCA, and I can handle the Aussies!

Philip,
You Scots just don't eat nearly as much meat. They're put on barbecued wildebeest at four-months in South Africa you know.

[T_MacWood]

Mark
I never knew there was bad blood among southern hemisphere dominions. I learned two things today: kiwis, springboks and wallabies don't like each other and Fibonacci's golden ratio.

What are Rhodesians (Zimbawbians) called?

[Mark_Guiniven]

Only on the rugby field Tom. Only on the rugby field.

Don't know what Zimbabweans are called. Displaced, usually.

[Chris Kane]

Mark, I believe that is incorrect.  New Zealanders appear to have a dislike of Australians, which I assume is founded entirely of envy  

[Shane Gurnett]

Chris,

You can tell right away that the New Zealanders have some "issues" with their western cousins, when you get off the plane at Auckland airport and they are selling T-Shirts that read:

"I am a proud New Zealander. I barrack for two teams - 1. New Zealand. 2. Anyone playing against Australia".

It all goes back to the moaning they carried on with over a certain underarm delivery many years ago  

[Tony_Muldoon]

Chris,

You can tell right away that the New Zealanders have some "issues" with their western cousins, when you get off the plane at Auckland airport and they are selling T-Shirts that read:

"I am a proud New Zealander. I barrack for two teams - 1. New Zealand. 2. Anyone playing against Australia".

North of the border a couple of years ago they were selling a T shirt with the 11 names of "the best Scottish footballers" on it.  It was the team sheet of the players that had just dumped England out of the European Championships - they had been playing for Germany.

[Chris Kane]

"I am a proud New Zealander. I barrack for two teams - 1. New Zealand. 2. Anyone playing against Australia".

It all goes back to the moaning they carried on with over a certain underarm delivery many years ago  

Pretty pathetic really.

[Mark_Guiniven]

Chris, I'm envious of any country who can successfully mate a beaver with a duck.

[Shane Gurnett]

Chris, I'm envious of any country who can successfully mate a beaver with a duck.

Or a rat with a bird:

[Philip Gawith]

Mark - I have been accused of many things in my time, but never before labelled a Scot. I am one of the wildebeest eaters....

[Mark_Guiniven]

This is exactly how these border skirmishes can get out of hand Philip. The Aussies, they're not too bright, and they're seldom built like Schalk Burger either. You on the other hand probably are, so I'll just extend my apologies and promise to read more carefully next time. Burger... see, even your best player is named after a meal. Enjoy your wildebeest.

[Bob_Huntley]

The last time I was in New Zealand was back in the seventies. I remember that as we were about to land, the hostess got on the intercom and in a delightfully plummy voice said, "Ladies and Gentlemen, we are about to land in Auckland, please put your clocks back twenty years."

Bob