Design/physics question: How the f*** can a ball break uphill?

[Dan_Callahan]

Obviously, the answer is that it can't, but ever see one of these greens on which the ball seems to defy the laws of physics and break uphill?

I encountered this most recently on the 13th green at Wintonbury Hills. The green is cut into a hillside, which obviouosly throws off the perspective. The hole was cut back-middle and my ball was front-middle. The putt was no more than 20 feet and appeared to be relatively straight or even slightly left to right. My partner—who is a member—had a longer putt on the same line and played it TWO FEET outside right and still missed it on the left.

No way I would have read that break correctly. Even after seeing his ball roll, I couldn't tell where the break was coming from. Obviously, the left to right cant of the green was usurped be the even greater right to left slope of the hill.

Question: Does an architect/shaper plan for this kind of optical illusion, or is it simply a fortuitous happenstance?

[TEPaul]

"Question: Does an architect/shaper plan for this kind of optical illusion, or is it simply a fortuitous happenstance?"

Good question. I'd say they must. Most good architects or shapers float greens, shoot all their grades for drainage patterns and such I guess and pretty much know which way a ball will roll anywhere on them.

I've been a plumb-bobber for years and only one time in my life did a green fool my plumb-bob into thinking the putt broke in the opposite direction it actually did. I have no idea how or why that happened that one time.

I plumbed it and told my caddie. He said it broke the other way. I plumbed it again and said that was impossible but he assured me it did. I plumbed it a third time and hit it where it plumbed and sure enough it broke completely the other way and I missed it by a number of feet. Damnedest thing I ever saw and the only time that ever happened.

[T_MacWood]

It happened to me at the Boradmoor in a dense fog...where you couldn't see the mountains. Some of the strangest things I've ever seen on a golf course...I thought something I'd taken at party earlier that summer was kicking in.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Greens or parts of greens can appear to break one way and actually break the other because the slope is just less than the overall slope of teh entire complex.

There's a famous example of this in Scotland where the terrain is falling so fast that the slightly up hill road appears to run downhill.  Documentary makers love to put a cyclist on the road and film them falling over as they try to freewheel uphill.

I was palying with one of the old guys who had palyed the course since day one (South Essex GCC, 5th Hawk), when I commented the downhill second shot always had me foxed because I usually ran the ball right past the pin to the 'top' of the green. He knew exactly what was going on, and asked if I always left my putt short?  With the downhill approach and the overall raise of the green from front to back, with large mounds behaind the left hand side, I hadn't spotted that the whole right hand section of the green peaked and then sloped down to the rear.

[Ted Kramer]

"Question: Does an architect/shaper plan for this kind of optical illusion, or is it simply a fortuitous happenstance?"

Good question. I'd say they must. Most good architects or shapers float greens, shoot all their grades for drainage patterns and such I guess and pretty much know which way a ball will roll anywhere on them.

I've been a plumb-bobber for years and only one time in my life did a green fool my plumb-bob into thinking the putt broke in the opposite direction it actually did. I have no idea how or why that happened that one time.

I plumbed it and told my caddie. He said it broke the other way. I plumbed it again and said that was impossible but he assured me it did. I plumbed it a third time and hit it where it plumbed and sure enough it broke completely the other way and I missed it by a number of feet. Damnedest thing I ever saw and the only time that ever happened.

Tom,

Would you mind explaining your plumb-bob?
I've always been curious about that green reading technique.

Thanks,
Ted

[ed_getka]

#17 at Pasatiempo and the "canyon effect" at Rustic Canyon are good examples of this phenomenon. Just ask Shivas about #17 at Pasa.

[Ted Kramer]

#3 at Rolling Green is an incredible example of this illusion.

-Ted

[Tim Bert]

I've had more than one putt roll in a way I couldn't see coming on the 13th at Wintonbury as well.  Tricky green for sure.

[Kyle Harris]

Could this just be a microcosm of any number of "Gravity Hills" that occur due to optical illusion?

I know of two in Pennsylvania. One on the road between Centralia, PA and Bloomsburg, PA just over the mountain on the way to Catawissa. You pull of on a driveway that looks downhill, but the way the slopes and the mountain are fool your eyes and you actually drive uphill. Then you put the car in neutral and it looks like you're drifting "uphill."

There's another in Bucks County that's more severe with a ghost story attached to it, but I am not sure where it is, despite my being from the area (I have extensive family in the coal region too).

As referenced in this wikipedia article. Both PA locations I mentioned are listed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_Hill

[Bill_McBride]

Redanman is right about optical illusion breaks in Colorado, and the East at Broadmoor (mostly Ross) is a great example.  The steep beginning of the Rocky Mountains is directly behind the course, and in many cases the only way you can tell how a putt breaks is to listen!

In this case to the carillon on the mountain, everything breaks away from the mountain and the sound of the bells.  There are lots of putts that appear flat or to break the other way.  Once you figure out the "mountain effect," you will get the lines right.  Some of the greens that appeared flattish actually had several feet of break on a 30' putt!