Great/Good Sites - Poor/Disappointing Courses

[Tom_Doak]

I saw Old Head before anything was built.  A stunning site, but I certainly had some question about whether there was enough room out there to build a great course, so I would disqualify it as a great site.

Ballybunion was recently soliciting proposals to work on their New course, and I went and looked at that, but decided not to touch it.  Partly that was out of respect for Mr. Jones [who believed it was the best course he ever built, even though I would not agree], but I did try to figure out a way to get a better routing than what they have and couldn't ... the site is just too severe.  [So, Paul, you need to get over there and show them what you can do!]

The only site mentioned so far which I think was a really great site is the land for The National in Australia.  I worked on routings for it, too, a long time ago, and thought someone should get at least an 8 or a 9 out of it ... they think they got a 10, but it doesn't count if you add the two courses together.

[michael_j_fay]

I cannot believe that the Trallee course has escaped this thread.

Palmer had dunes, flatland and the sea to work with and failed to produce a 5. The ascnsion into the dunes with a long straight uphill par five was unimaginative at best. The seventeenth is a short four that could have been an heroic long four.

For all the hype this course has received it is the weakest of the costal course in Southwest Ireland.

[Chris Moore]

Intellectually, I cannot see how a site for a golf course could ever be "great" but contain a poor golf course.  Doesn't a poor golf course make the site "not great"?  Isn't the pleasure of the total experience in golf necessarily tied to the site where the game is played?  Just can't get my mind around this one.  

[BCrosby]

Geoff -

I didn't say OF was a poor course. It's not. It's that it does not live up to either its site or the vast sums of money spent on it.

Bob

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoff -

I didn't say OF was a poor course. It's not. It's that it does not live up to either its site or the vast sums of money spent on it.

Bob

Bob-  I'm glad we agree - That's why I don't think OF belongs in this thread as its worded.

[Sean Leary]

What are some examples of great sites (or good ones) which have been poorly utilized by the designer(s)?

Patrick,

This is what I was responding to. Sandpines is not a poor course overall, just relative to what could have been done.

I have played Old Head, and I wonder what  else people think couild have been done to make the non cliff holes better. Different Routing? It just seemed too constricted due to a lack of space, but I don't know how much it could have been improved....

[Jeff Goldman]

I'm told Bay Harbor in Michigan was a great site, and, as many have posted here, not a great course.  

[John Pflum]

I'm told Bay Harbor in Michigan was a great site, and, as many have posted here, not a great course.  

Jeff,

I played BH a number of years ago.  From my perspective, the "Links" 9 of BH site was similar to Pac Dunes and Arcadia Bluffs -- high cliffs overlooking a vast expanse of water.  The "Quarry" 9 of BH seemed just to be holes designed to fit in the space available on the site, not to take advantage of the site.  My $.02 as an untrained observer.  

[Evan Fleisher]

in his Confidential Guide Tom memorably described these courses as "Dumb Blondes" ....Arrowhead in Colorado was on the list, and deservedly so:  an okay course, but it certainly didn't come close to its setting

for those who've played it, would Princeville In Hawaii make this list?  some people have said it is just unbelievably difficult...

In my opinion, Paul...no it should not be on this list.  Personally, I'm not so sure that the piece of property was such a great site to start with, but they did in fact take a very pictureque piece of land, in a fairly difficult location, and lay on top of it a fairly interesting golf course...certainly not a poor or dissapointing one.

Many here talk of it's difficulty, and while that may be true it certainly makes for a MEMORABLE round of golf, but not one of a poor experience.

At least that is my take on Princeville.  Flame away, gang!

[Ian Andrew]

Fox Harb'r

1 mile of coastline on the back nine, the entire site sloping towards the sea and the cliffs. Yet no hole plays towards the ocean (with a the ocean serving as the background). Only one shot puts you on the cliffs, and that tee shot plays away from the ocean.

A combination of a questionable routing and containment mounding makes your views to the ocean strangely limited for such an awesome site.

Still can't figure out why the whole course seems to turn its back on the ocean at every turn. Why isn't the 18th where the short course sits unused?

For me, this remains as the greatest "what could have been" I have seen so far.

Until seeing Inverness this was the best ocean site to come along (in Canada) in decades.

[Matthew Mollica]

The only site mentioned so far which I think was a really great site is the land for The National in Australia.  I worked on routings for it, too, a long time ago, and thought someone should get at least an 8 or a 9 out of it ... they think they got a 10, but it doesn't count if you add the two courses together.

Tom, Chris mentioned National Moonah (Norman) as a superior course to Moonah Links (Open) designed by Thomsom. As you know, The National's site also possesses a Thomson course (Ocean). That is surely the winner in this category of great sites yielding disappointing courses. I assume you are giving that a 3 or 4 at best?

Matthew

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned Spanish Bay ?

[Mike Benham]

Or Sandpines ...

[Adam_F_Collins]

There are a couple of little homegrown courses here in Nova Scotia that fit the bill IMHO - the newer 9 at a course called Eden always bothered me - such beautiful, rolling land through a mature Pine forest on sandy soil, with a nice river running through...and they made this quirky, homemade mishmash of oddities...

tragic.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Benham,

How is Sandpines a GREAT site ?

[PThomas]

Patrick  - pls explain what you didn't like about S Bay; thanks

[Mark_F]

Chris,

How many times have you returned to the Open course after your initial foray?

I think it's poor because A) It's wholly uninspiring
                                 B) It's wholly uninteresting
                                 C) The par threes are terrible
                                  D)The bunkers look shocking

There are no holes you crave to play again - unlike the other MP courses you mention, or unlike National Old.

[Mike Benham]

Mike Benham,

How is Sandpines a GREAT site ?

I never said it was GREAT, the title of the topic says "Great/Good" and I was on the Good side ...

[Chris Kane]

Mark, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I'm not suggesting that its a good course, but there isn't a whole lot there that is particularly offensive (besides the bunkering).  Its a collection of solid holes, with nothing all-world.    

I havn't returned there because I only play 3-4 times a year in the area, and I'd rather play Portsea, St Andrews Beach or one of the two National courses.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Benham,

What's so GOOD about the Sandpines site ?

[Steve Lapper]

Have many forgotten???

How about The Bridge, Bridgehampton, NY. It had all the potential in it's land to join it's classic brethren on Eastern LI, but missed by no less than a country mile!!

It is sad to think that it only has 1-2 memorable holes (and een those are most remembered for their vista views rather than their design. Ree Jones did a vastly better job of creating something from the flatter farmlands at Atlantic than the magnificant rolling lands of the ex-Bridgehampton Race Track. What a dissapointment. bordering very near on POOR or Tragic!

[Doug Wright]

Steve,

Many of us have erased The Bridge from our mind since the epic 300-400 post thread on here several years ago. RIP.

[Steve Lapper]

Doug,

   You might be Wright  , however, like much of the recent regurgitation posted on GCA recently...the shoe fits well here. The Bridge has cracked that ethically pure GD Top 100 list this year thus re-opening the door IMHO...

What a tragic result of a great site and poor design.