Who builds the best par 5 holes?

[Matthew Mollica]

Simple question -

Of the modern day archies, who builds the best par 5s?

In nominating an architect, could you cite a few examples?

My own nomination -

Bob Harrison of Great White Shark / Greg Norman Golf Course Design.

Great elasticity, good looking, great greensites, and loads of options on EACH shot. Many beckon the heroic long second to the green. Different pins provide different ideal angles of attack. Play line diagrams of the holes can look like a diagram mapping out a tacking duel between two yachts.

Matthew

[Andy Troeger]

It has been mentioned somewhere that Pete Dye is considered the master of the par five. From what I've played I can't argue with that. Blackwolf Run has some of the best I've played (1, 8, 11, 16). Also 11 at Sawgrass comes to mind, and 11 at the Fort in Indianapolis. Must be something about the number 11  

I'm sure there are other good examples...any help on that?

[Mike Nuzzo]

I like Baxter Spann's five pars at Black Mesa better than most.
The second shots on every one are super, as well as the first and if needed the third.

#3 - gives Baxter a hard time still
#6 - I hit the green for the first time in two this year - it is risky.
#13 - I did eagle once, but am usually left off the tee, which is not the right spot - right gives you a better angle to carry the fairway cross bunker or go for the green.
#16 - While not for the Huckster (I saw his 3 first hand), it is a stairway to 7 for me - nothing like laying up in an arroyo.

[ForkaB]

"Stairway to Seven" is the best name for a par 5 that I've ever seen.

[Tyler Kearns]

Matthew,

I think when considering the best par-5 holes, due consideration should be given to the interest of the second shot (for those NOT in a position to reach the green in one less than regulation). All too often this shot is rather mundane, with the only consideration being given to leaving a favorite yardage into the green for the third stroke. While this requires skill, it does not yield the excitment of challenging a hazard to get both the desired yardage and proper angle into the green.

TK

[Jim Adkisson]

My favorite par 5 is the closing hole at Pacific Dunes...#3 is a great one also...and while 12 and 15 don't live up to the quality of those 2, they have interesting green complexes and traverse some of the least dramatic terrain on the property...I'd love to get the chance to play some of Doak's other courses and see some of his other work on the long holes.

[Geoffrey Childs]

While I love many of Pete Dyes par 5 holes I will have to nominate Coore and Crenshaw.

Perhaps the best set on the planet is at Sand Hills.

The 7th and 14th at Friars Head is as good as any two you will ever find on any course as well.

The 3rd and 9th at Hidden Creek are superb

The "Boundary" at #2 on Talking Stick North is brilliant as are their use of the washes and barancas at Talking Stick.

They emply a variety of green types and strategies yet they manage to find both interesting tees shots, second shot layups and approaches to greens (what could be more interesting then a pitch to #7 at Friars Head?) then about any modern OR classic designer.  

In fact I think they are the best EVER at building par 5's.

[RJ_Daley]

Yes, Coore and Doak have built some great par 5s by all accounts.  But they started with Dye, and I have to think that Dye's influence got them in the right mindset.  I'll go with Dye.

[Geoffrey Childs]

RJ

I need more detail on Dye.  I love his back nine 5's at Sawgrass but how about some other examples and why they are great.  The par 5's at The Ocean course are not for me at least the most memorable reasons why I love the course and Harbor Town has a pretty mundane set.

Thanks

[ed_getka]

I don't know how the rest of his courses stack up but Strantz did a great job with 5 par 5's at MPCC Shore.

I would agree that Sand Hills has the best set of par 5's of any modern course I have seen, so C&C are certainly in the running. #14 SH is my favorite par 5 of all.

[Andy Troeger]

Geoffrey,
  Take a look at the Blackwolf Run page on this site. That explains my thoughts on Dye better than I can articulate it myself. One thing I've noticed about Dye's courses is the incredible variety in the par fives. Sure some work better than others (I know many don't like #5 at Whistling Straits for example...I birdied it so I thought it was great  ). They're almost never boring, however, and he usually does challenge the second shot, whether or not the player is trying to reach the green in two.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey,
  Take a look at the Blackwolf Run page on this site. That explains my thoughts on Dye better than I can articulate it myself. One thing I've noticed about Dye's courses is the incredible variety in the par fives. Sure some work better than others (I know many don't like #5 at Whistling Straits for example...I birdied it so I thought it was great  ). They're almost never boring, however, and he usually does challenge the second shot, whether or not the player is trying to reach the green in two.

Andy

Thanks for pointing me to the Blackwolf Run review by Ran.  As usual, Ran has a way with words and a camera that convey the points he is trying to make. I would agree that these holes look compelling.  As mentioned I love the back 9 5's at Sawgrass and several at TOC and PGA West.  I still might choose C & C but the caase isn't quite as clear as I might have imagined.

One thing you helped me decide is that I will be going to Kohler this coming year even if it means not taking a return trip to Bandon Dunes.

[Jay Cox]

The par 5's at The Ocean course are not for me at least the most memorable reasons why I love the course and Harbor Town has a pretty mundane set.

Regarding the Ocean Course, I agree that the par 5s are not as instantly memorable as some of the other holes (12-14 and 17, for instance), but I think they are among the strongest holes on the course.

I love the angles of play on the 2nd.  It is one of the few holes where I found myself having to think about the placement of the tee shot even if I had no plan to go for the green in two.

I love the green site of the 11th.  To me, it is the prettiest and most visually intimidating on the course.  I also found the relatively small green much easier to approach with a full wedge than a shorter pitch, especially from a bad angle -- another feature I admire greatly in par 5 holes, since it really makes you think before you blast a second shot.

The 16th is not one of my all-time favorite holes, but I think it is an excellent complement (visually and in terms of shot values) to 17 and 18.  I also really like the massive bunker right of the 16th green: it provides an appropriate degree of penalty (somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 of a shot, depending on where in it you go) to make the second shot decision a close call in a lot of circumstances.

I didn't find the 7th that exciting, but I do think it provides a good contrast to the other three holes and possibly the most interesting non-par-3 tee shot on the course (the others I'd consider are 2 and 13).

I've only the played the course four times, so my opinions might be influenced substantially by the tee setup / wind conditions when I played.

Regarding Harbour Town, I agree that the par 5s are the weakest set of holes on the course.  I also think the par 5s at Teeth of the Dog are not that great.  Overall, I think Dye has built many, many excellent par 5s but that the average par 5 on a Dye course is not much better than one would expect given the quality of the his other holes.

As to the original question -- who builds the best par 5 holes -- how about Stanley Thompson?  Though many of his par 5s have been weakened by technology (see most of the par 5s at Banff Springs, for example), I find them creative and challenging without being reliant on water as a hazard.  I think the set at Highland Links is truly excellent (especially 7 and 16, two of my favorite holes anywhere) and the set as Jasper, while very short now, is also fantastic.  Judged at the time they were built (since we can hardly blame Stanley for subsequent advances in tehcnology), I think Thompson's par 5s are without parallel.

Edit: sorry, missed the word "modern" in the first post.  But I think this raises an interesting question:  do modern architects build better par 5s?  Or has technology weakened most old par 5s to the point that we can't really evaluate them meaningfully anymore?

[James Bennett]

Matthew Mollica

I played Brookwater in Brisbane a few years ago (Norman/Harrison course) pre housing development.  It was in its early stages, when the temporary clubhouse was in use.

The par 5's were indeed very good.  I think one had a smallish green (about #15 I think), whilst others were laid out in front of you with a variety of lines of play, depending on your length.  And, as a shorrter hitter, they certainly passed the Tyler kearns test of challenging the second shot as well.

James B

[Matt_Ward]

Among the best I have ever played -- Jim Engh.

I can name plenty from a host of courses he has designed.

Always challenging, fun and involve plenty of options / risks.

[mark chalfant]

i have only played two of  RTJ II  courses but both had very thoughtful and topographically interesting par fives

Orchards near  Detroit
University  Ridge...... Madison,Wisconsin


As Matt mentions,  Jim Engh. the ensemble of three shotters at Pradera (Denver) is very nice

[Tom_Doak]

I wouldn't pick myself -- I'm more of a par-four kind of guy, although occasionally I get a par five right!

I second the nomination for Bill Coore.  Kapalua's par fives are a cool set, too.

[Richard Chamberlain]

Matthew Mollica

I played Brookwater in Brisbane a few years ago (Norman/Harrison course) pre housing development.  It was in its early stages, when the temporary clubhouse was in use.

The par 5's were indeed very good.  I think one had a smallish green (about #15 I think), whilst others were laid out in front of you with a variety of lines of play, depending on your length.  And, as a shorrter hitter, they certainly passed the Tyler kearns test of challenging the second shot as well.

James B

James,

I've played brooky a few times and think the fives there are a mixed bunch.
The 4th is a beauty....a brute for us mere mortals.
The 8th is a nothing Par 5 in my opinion. its straight, and most shots that land between the trees funnel back into the centre of the fairway.
The 15th...good hole....very small green, tough to hit for 2nd, 3rd or 4th shot in.
The 17th...Still undecided on this one...I don't mind the first half of the hole but I think the stuff around the green is a bit too tough.

[James Bennett]

Richard Chamberlain

sounds right.  I can recall #4 and #15, but not the other two.

Probably a terrible thing to say (about me) but my memory has trouble distinguishing between some (not all) Terrey Hills holes and some Brookwater holes, especially near the end of the nines.  I guess that's the risk of commenting from only one round.

James B

[RJ_Daley]

Geoffre, I think that of the Pete Dye par 5s I've seen personally (only 6 courses) and those I've observed on various TV events, his par 5s seem to be the most dramatic in terms of what can happen.  For us mortals and mid to high cappers, he seems to give you a bunt it up there in 4 shots and deal with generally tricky contoured greens with peril of deviously placed bunkers in the surrounds.  If not bunkers, man made designed structure and or use of the dreaded water.  

But most of his tee shots on par 5s have some of the greatest area for making strategy choices with risk and reward or decide early to play safe.  If you are bold enough and strong enough, he often gives a distinct reward area after clearing dramatic trouble off the tee.  But, he follows that with increasing risk if you go for it in 2.  If you are capable of playing bold on Dye 5s, you can really bring some scary numbers in play.  But, there are the intermediate and short routes to give you a true layup strategy right from the tee.  

Too many mundane par 5s start with a singular theme right from the tee, IMHO.  Hit it hear, then there, and pitch to a green.   All you get is the choice of hit it long, but not with the angles, carries, width, or designed consequences that Dye often gives.  

[RJ_Daley]

I see TD responded here.  I wonder if he might have anything to say about any Dye influence on his or Bill Coore's par 5 thinking (if any) in their early days.  If there was a theme, philosophy or influence, what was it?  Design or construction techniques?  Any rules of thumb sort of thing?

[Andrew Summerell]

Matt,

It's interesting to see early courses Harrison did, before he was with Norman. The first thing you notice is the par 5's. Having played some of his early stuff and some of his later stuff, there is a definite theme that runs through them all.

I actually don't believe his style regarding par 5's has changed over the last 20 years, merely refined.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I actually don't believe his style regarding par 5's has changed over the last 20 years, merely refined.

Andrew,
Would you please expand on what his style is?
I've never seen his work.
Thank you.