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Tony_Muldoon

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Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #50 on: October 19, 2005, 11:57:55 AM »
Earlier this year I posted on TV's influence on the game and then I watched the Open from TOC and realised everything I knew and that of all the TV experts was wrong!  The greatest TV golf is when the ball is running on the ground. What will happen next?

How much fun would it be if they played a big tournament on a course with a Biarritz?  With the aerial view showing the ball running into the swale and depending on how it was hit diverting towards or away from the hole, magic.

What length would it need  to be for Tiger etc?
Let's make GCA grate again!

RE Blanks

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #51 on: October 19, 2005, 12:05:37 PM »
Tony,  most of the tour players hit the ball and long enough to not have to deal with the swale.  If the pin is on the back 235 yards mos would hit a high long iron.  As for the someone like myself I would be swinging a fairway wood or a low running long iron using the green as the hole was most likely intended to play.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #52 on: October 19, 2005, 12:07:16 PM »
Does a Biarritz green, by definition require the swale to cut straight across the green perpendicular to the line of play?

• Do some have a swale angled to the line of play?
• Are there any "V" or  "U" shaped swales?

Or would these variations negate the use of the term "Biarritz"?

Jason Topp

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Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #53 on: October 19, 2005, 12:11:45 PM »
I've hear that there is talk of modifying the biarritz green at the Wilderness at Fortune Bay as well as some of the other wilder contours on the greens.  


I hope it is not true as I really enjoyed that green as well as the others.  If they are too severe, they should just slow them down a bit.

Pete Buczkowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #54 on: October 19, 2005, 02:38:28 PM »
Jason - I hope that's not true!  My highlight shot of the year came on that green...I sunk a putt to a front pin from the back ledge.  It just goes to show you that this DG is in the minority about what to appreciate on the golf course.  I can see that side of the issue though...for instance on the 3rd green there are areas where you can't get within 20 feet of certain pin locations...we find it refreshing but not every player does.

Adam:  I don't know the answer to your question, but I played a Biarritz this weekend that has a lot of slope from left to right...from the front of the green you have to hit your chip and run down the left edge of the green to reach a back center pin.  Outside the edges the land slopes to a chipping area.  The only way to get close to a back left pin from the front is to fly it back there.  

This has been the year of the Biarritz for me...I played 7 different greens inspired by the concept.

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2005, 02:58:19 PM »

This has been the year of the Biarritz for me...I played 7 different greens inspired by the concept.

Come on Pete, step the plate. Your rankings of the 7 please. :)

Pete Buczkowski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #56 on: October 19, 2005, 04:16:23 PM »
Come on Pete, step the plate. Your rankings of the 7 please. :)

OK Matt  ;)...but I am not a rater so I will give my thoughts on each...good enough?

Angels Crossing #6 (MI) - Really like this hole.  May not be a "true" Biarritz since the slope angles from right-to-left, but I like that the rest of the green contouring is interesting besides just the swale.  We hit some putts from the front to the back, there is a lot of interest there!

Creek (NY) #11 - This hole has been discussed often...I am not convinced that its the great golf hole that others here think it is.  I do like the fact that the green angles a bit but the green is so big and the swale is relatively shallow so I don't think the running shot to the back pin is much in play here.  If the tee and pin is all the way back, you'd have to hit a cut to run it to the back pin.  If you are that good than likely you can hit a long iron to the back shelf and stop it...the mid-capper shouldn't try either one in a stroke play setting.

Highlands Reserve (FL) #16 - I like this green as a stand-alone but I don't see how it fits the hole or tie into its surroundings well.  This is the green I referred to in the above post, where there is significant left-to-right pitch.  Also, its the second shot to a par 4 where the green is diagonal left to right from the right side of the fairway, so that might explain the contours.  However, the green is semi-blind from the fairway so the player doesn't get the excitement of seeing the ball on the back tier.  

Mountain Lake (FL) #5 - Interestingly I think this is the only one that I've played that is bunkered on the majority of the length of both sides.  Other than that the green is pretty standard Biarritz.  Its an OK hole but I don't think its the highlight of the par 3's on this course.  I prefer both 9 & 11 but it rounds balances the other par 3's nicely.

Southern Dunes (FL) #16 - Sort of a cross between a Biarritz and a Redan, my feelings on this green are mixed.  The front and back portions are pretty small, requiring precision to hit the right level.  Plus, it is a par 5, which I think is a plus, because you really have to think about going for the green and where to place your lay-up.  Good thing too because the tee shot is the course's least interesting.  The only one that I've seen where the middle is consistently pinned.  Since the slopes are so steep and the middle portion is small (only about 3 paces), its a pretty easy pin position if you hit it on the proper level.    

Wilderness at Fortune Bay (MN) #5 - Fun green at the end of a short par 4.  I like the idea that you can risk hitting driver and hit it close to the green, leaving a fun running shot up the length of the green.  If I remember correctly, the back is contoured to let balls feed to back pins (almost a punchbowl effect).  Some day I'll get around to posting pics of this one.

Yale (CT) #9 - What else can I say about this hole (let's not talk about my playing of this hole please ;)).  I think the coolest thing is that its on its own corner of the property...you can't even see it from 8 tee...in fact its not at all obvious to the first-time player where the hole is until you reach it.  Also I was surprised that the land flows from right-to-left at the green.  I want another crack (or two) at this one!  ;D

I've played the ones at AC, ML, Yale, and the Creek only once, so my thoughts my change on multiple plays.  For us non-raters that is allowed. ;)

Let the flogging begin.

Pete

gookin

Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #57 on: October 19, 2005, 05:51:35 PM »
Phil glad to see you made it back safely and thanks for the nice comments on #17 at Fox Chapel.  It must have brought me out of the closet because I have not posted here for several months. The cool thing about our #17 is that playing short and running it through the dip is a very legitimate strategy.  I did it on Saturday using a 3 iron into a strong wind.  Landed on the downslope and ended up pin high 235 yards away.  ( You could carry that far not me!!!). This is the ultimate in strategic choices.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #58 on: October 19, 2005, 07:20:02 PM »
Patrick, you asked: "How would you rate the Biarritz at Essex County West ? "

I played that course for 17 years - that is probably one of the worse examples of a Biarritz I've ever played (seen and played most).

There was a high tee that played 220 years ago.

They shortened the hole, killed that tee but the main reason I don't like it is;

a - because the swale is very shallow (it was never deep),

b - the green is ground-level with a slight falloff to the left and a hill to the right anddddddddddddddddddddd (Matt W) ddddd .....

c - there are no features on the green - there may have been but I was playing that hole in the 50s and 60s.

it is just a long stupid par 3

In a single word: ...... "SUCKY," Patrick
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bob Barriger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2005, 08:36:59 PM »
Actually played a Biarritz today at the Camargo Club in Cincinnati.  Theirs has the dropoff as part of the fairway in front on the green and with todays front pin placement, made it a very sporty up and down. Since I scanked my tee shot right, I did not have to deal with the Biarritz. Have also played a number of others that have already been mentioned and I won't belabor their points made.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2005, 10:45:00 PM »
Never mind the Biarritz...has anyone heard from our friend Mike Rewinski?

Mike,
I got to visit with Mike when I was back there and partake in a cigar with him while going around Westhampton. Mike is a peach of a guy and I loved Westhampton. What one could do with that course if they had "The Dry Cleaner" there with Mike, figuring it all out. ("The Dry Cleaner"--sounds like a Quintin Tarrantino character) ;)


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2005, 08:25:56 AM »
As I have posted before, I have never really figured out if the Biartiz played well then, or now!  They sure do look cool, and for that reason, I have built some variations, but all with the green on both sides of the swale.

In Lake Jackson, I have the standard long par three, along the axis green.  Ditto in Fortune Bay, although on a driveale par 4.

In Ft Worth, I did a sideways Biaritz on a driveable 4 with two fairways and in Newton, KS, I just finished a sideways Biaritz on a long Par 5.

I will hold off for a while until I decide where they best fit in the  modern version of the game......while I like "Concept Holes" on Par 3's, since there is no related shot strategy, I have a hunch it works better on other par holes.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2005, 08:42:39 AM »
Jeff -

I'm with you. I've never understood the fascination with the classic Biarritz.

The concept does work wonderfully on reachable par 4's and 5's. I hope people continue to build them in those contexts.

Bob

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #63 on: October 20, 2005, 11:06:01 PM »
Thanks Bob..... we concur as the three true Biarritz greens we have built of late have been on two par fours and a five...all because of the shot characteristics that can be found on the longer holes....personally I would love to do a par three of 305 yds or so.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Phil Benedict

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #64 on: October 21, 2005, 12:28:59 PM »
David:  One of the benefits of belonging to a great Seth Raynor course is getting to play the course over and over again and using trial and error to see what type of shot works for a particular hole.  My one time at Fox Chapel I flew a three-wood to the back tier cause it seemed like the right play on that particular day (in fact it resulted in a par after a good two-putt).  It must be cool to watch a ball run through the gully from that tee.  Using the ground contours to execute a golf shot is tremendously satisfying, isn't it?

I am still licking my wounds after Jay Francis blew it past me on the long drive hole last week.  Back to the weight room, I guess.

Nathan Cashwell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2005, 09:41:56 PM »
With all of the Tobacco Road fans on this site I'm surprised noone has mentioned Strantz's interesting and fun Biarritz (the 3rd hole at TR).  A short par 3 with one bunker on each side of the green.  The back left wraps behind the bunker.  I have seen the pin in the back and in the swale, but never in the front.  A fun, exciting, and of course more radical than traditional look, but it is a Biarritz.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2005, 10:39:26 PM »
I've hear that there is talk of modifying the biarritz green at the Wilderness at Fortune Bay as well as some of the other wilder contours on the greens.  


I hope it is not true as I really enjoyed that green as well as the others.  If they are too severe, they should just slow them down a bit.

Holy Crap, Batman! How did I miss that one when I posted?  I thought I had calmed down the "redo the Biarritz green" at FB.  The pro thought it might cause a few unfair putts, of course, but said it was growing on him......

what people who don't understand that green is that guys like Pete can't have a career thrill by making a similar length putt over a flat green! Hell, Pete, that putt could qualifiy for some of those Master Card commericals.....

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Biarritz Observations and Opinions
« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2005, 10:44:21 PM »
This is a recent photo of the 10th at erin hills. a par 5 with wild fairway to a natural biarittz green. Like most of the course no dirt was moved to create this green. Its the longest green i've ever seen. It has a twist to it. Reminded me of an  M.C. Escher drawing.


« Last Edit: October 23, 2005, 10:48:12 PM by Mike McGuire »