[TEPaul]

God knows why this hole (a very long par 3) that Tillinghast claims he originated and built a version of at Newport has not been used more in golf architecture. On paper (or in his drawing and description of it) in the book "The Course Beautiful" it looks to be a completely fascinating hole and extremely strategic too. It also feels like a hole that could be suited to semi-flat ground.

[ForkaB]

Tom

For those of us ignorami, could you describved (in 10,000 words or less) what a "REEF" hole is, and why it is fascinating to you?

Thanks

Rich

[Andy Levett]

Rich,
Philip Young writes about it here: http://www.tillinghast.net/whatsnewArchitect.html
Scroll down to this drawing of the hole for the relevant bits:

I like the idea too.

[mike_malone]

 It looks like the family dog!

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Andy (although I was looking forward to TE Paul's 9,999 word explanation....).

I also like this idea, today, but in the 1920's wasn't 300 yards a bit long to be thought of a a "par" 3?  Even to the elite golfer?

[Andy Levett]

It looks like the family dog!

Very good.

I wonder if Weiskopf and Morrish know the Reef hole? The 14th  at Loch Lomond could be a 'reverse Reef'.

[Steve Curry]

I think this is one



Number 5 at Berkshire Hills CC, originally designed at 240 yds

Steve

[Jim_Kennedy]

Steve,
That hole is a 'Grief', not a 'Reef'.  

[TEPaul]

"Tom
For those of us ignorami, could you describved (in 10,000 words or less) what a "REEF" hole is, and why it is fascinating to you?
Thanks
Rich"

Rich:

I'd be happy to describe it for you and why it's so fascinating to me but in 10,000 words or less??? Certainly not.

[TEPaul]

"It looks like the family dog!"

Mayday, you, you you....Oh never mind!

If that Tillinghast drawing of the REEF hole looks like your family dog I say put that dog out of its misery before the end of the day today!!

[TEPaul]

How do you guys think a REEF hole would be accepted today of about 275 yards with a single wide tee box and the same markers for all somewhat like the way Tillie drew it? It could be a short par 4 on the card for most and a super long par 3 on a championship card. I'm getting more and more for sort of half-par holes these days. That'd be a way of showing modern golfers what golf used to be like when holes like that one were originally designed back in the good old days.

[paul cowley]

Tom ...I didn't see this earlier....consider it in.
The strategy works really well for where I think we are heading in the future [or at least where I am heading]....having two different par values on a single hole depending on a persons skill level, like you described.

I can't wait to do a par 68 from the tips but also a par 72 from the forward positions [or even the same positions].

[TEPaul]

    "IT IS GENERALLY CONCEDED that any course must stand or fall by reason of the character of its one-shot holes. Not that the others may be weak and the one shotters alone claim distinction, but certainly uninspiring par threes will never lift an otherwise fine course above mediocrity. It is the thought of some that the one shot hole needs only to provide a teeing-ground and a green with immediately surrounding hazards. But as a matter of fact the approach is of incalculable value to lend finesse to the play.
     My sketch generally describes a length of approximately two hundred and twenty five yards (or with the playing length under normal conditions) (MY PARENTHESES--eg probably about 275 yards to comp 225 yards in the era Tillie designed this hole). A similar hole was originated by me at Newport, and the variations to suit conditins have been constructed on other courses with gratifying results.
     The outstanding feature of the type, is provided by a ridge, graded naturally in diagonal meandering across the fairway, dividing it into distince areas. The way to the green on the left is only for the courageous with the long carry directly over the large pit. On the right, the less ambitious may find a comfortable route well satisfied if a careful 4 goes on the card.
     Four tee shots are indicated by the dotted lines. Two are quite obvious, I think---the raking shot home and the careful two-to-the-green on the right. Another shows the deflection into a pit from the long, off-line shot on the right. The other may need a bit of scrutiny for it represents a kick to the green from a slightly pulled shot into the throw on the extreme left of the fairway, a dangerous chance, however, if the distance is gauged nicely, for pits fore and aft wait for the erring.
      This hole places a premium on the accurate placement from the tee, with intersting grading of play. I named the type "The Reef" because of the diagonal spine which suggested treacherous reef water outside the harbor."
A.W. Tillinghast

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

A few thoughts on your comments about Tilly's Reef.

You said, "this hole (a very long par 3)" and "a length of approximately two hundred and twenty five yards (or with the playing length under normal conditions) (MY PARENTHESES--eg probably about 275 yards to comp 225 yards in the era Tillie designed this hole)" and "It could be a short par 4 on the card for most and a super long par 3 on a championship card."

The reason for this design is to provide a par-three that has a number of subtleties to set this apart as more than just your average par-three. Tilly wrote, "But as a matter of fact the approach is of incalculable value to lend finesse to the play." It is because of his view that the approach into the green is the most important aspect of design, regardless of the length of the hole, that the subtleties of this design are so important.

The first one is that this is NOT as long a hole as you think. Remember, Tilly believed that holes were only as long as they played. Consider, what he wrote, "The other may need a bit of scrutiny for it represents a kick to the green from a slightly pulled shot into the throw on the extreme left of the fairway..." This shows that the hole will have downslopes TOWARD the green on that side. These will not be of the mounding type, but will actually be a natural contour of the the land so that a short-er shot may still make the green by playing off this hill. Actually, the Reef hole built at Bethpage (originally #5 on the Blue & now #12 on the Yellow) has this feature as the Reef cuts across the fairway and the far section is lower than the upper. This appears to be the general design of what he wanted the Reef to be, so that, in effect, it is playing at least slightly, or more, downhill.

So yes, by numbers it is a very long par-three, but by play it isn't necessarily so.

Steve, #5 at Berkshire Hills isn't one. There is no "diagonal spine" with bunber & rough.

Tilly did write that, "A similar hole was originated by me at Newport, and the variations to suit conditins have been constructed on other courses with gratifying results."

Now in addition to Newport, where did Tilly build "similar holes?" We know of the one at Bethpage which, by the way, is the smoking gun proof of his authorship of the courses, and we now know of a third that may also be one. The club is taking a careful exam & doing research in their files to see if they can authenticate it as such. If & when they do I'll share the news.

Are there any other ones that Tilly may have designed and that we might identify?

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Phil-

  Great work at Bethpage in helping the staff to realise the full potential of the Reef hole!  

  Some firsthand observation on Yellow 12-REEF:

  The Bethpage Reef, in its current form, is slightly different than Tillie's drawing:
The hole plays about 312 from the blue tees
Today's hole features a sliver of fairway up the left side; the "hazard" portion of the hole is featured as a small hill, about 8-10 feet in height, cutting into the fairway from the right, on a diagonal covered in approximately three-inch rough.  At the moment, I don't recall if the hazard comes from long right to short left, or short right to long left.  

It is driveable, playing slightly downhill from the tee, but not much, thus having the requisite 'half-par' nature; if I recall correctly, Kyle and I were just short of the green, he was a bit closer to the green than I, on a better angle, and made birdie. I parred.  

As a public course, and one that sees as much traffic as The Yellow Course, I can understand maintaining it where players can find the ball easily and have a shot from the hazard.  I remember talking with Kyle Harris during our round on the Yellow in June of this year and related that, if I had my way, I would present it as a waste area, with longer grasses covering the hills.  

  As I'm visiting there next week, I will try to take some pictures of it for use in this discussion.  

[Steve Curry]

Philip,

I beg to differ, it may not be drawn as such, but on the ground the natural contour of the land is such that the three diagonal bunkers are on a slight ridge with a down and left cantering gradient to the green site.  It is, though much shorter now, often played as you describe by hitting short and right and letting the ball feed to the surface.

I will try to get a photo up from the angle of the original tee.  And it is important to note that the diagonal bunkers were not completed.

Cheers,
Steve

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul & Phil Young,

The 4th at Newport has another, critical hazard, the wind off the water.

It complicates the play of the hole exponentially,

In addition, none of the posted sketches reveal the contouring and slopes in the green.  At # 4 at Newport they are considerable and add to the fun and challenge of the hole.

The next hole, the 5th at Newport, may be one of the most strategic holes in all of golf.  The options and commensurate risks-rewards are brilliant.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

Back in that day flying a ball over 200 yards was a pretty good poke. That's why I say designing a "REEF" hole today at about 275 (to the middle) would be appropriate.

Back then a good player may've used a driver or 3 wood to carry the ball to the green at 225 (one of Tillinghast's four dotted line options). The other dotted line option was to hit it to the 'throw' and filter it onto the green. That may've been a carry of around 185-200. Today the commensurate shot to that "throw" should be maybe 225-250 to basically call for the same type of club that option called for back then. As far as trying to drive it right to the green today at 275 that would be a 3 wood or driver for most good players just as it was back then when that hole was designed.

The other thing I like about the hole is its seemingly very large scale, particularly width-wise----eg the line to that "throw" appears from the tee to be to the left of the left edge of the putting green!!!

I have seen another hole of this type. Interestingly, it was Ross's #12 at LuLu. Unfortunately, the tee and tee angle is completely gone now in favor of a parking lot.

[Wayne_Kozun]

The second hole at my club, Scarboro in Toronto, looks very similar to this Reef Hole.  Tillinghast significantly redesigned Scarboro circa 1924, and this hole was completely his design as it was on property that the club just bought.

The hole plays about 215 yds from the back with a gully cutting diagonally across in front of the green from left to right just as is shown in the diagram above.  There was an elm tree short of the gully on the right hand side that came down in the late 60s/early 70s.  The green is now guarded by several silver maples that, arguably, should be cut down.  These trees block a shot heading for the right hand side of the green unless the shot is hit extremely high.  Given the slope of the green the ideal shot would be a high draw assuming that you can make it over the trees.  A fade is a better shape given the trees but the green slopes from back left to front ride so often a fade will run off the right side of the green.

The gully collects, conservatively, about 25% of tee shots.
Aerial of Scarboro #2
Scarboro #2 from Tee

[mike_beene]

Maybe a stretch,but couldn't 16 at Brook Hollow be a reef hole?Before you dismiss it think about how the hill falls away to the right.It at least plays like one.

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