Diagonal Ridges in the driving area

[Mike_Cirba]

One of my favorite features is when an architect uses an existing ridge in the fairway, at a diagonal angle, to create wide variations in driving length and positioning for the subsequent shot.  

Used effectively, they should work something like this;  

A drive that takes the more daring, longer carry route, usually on a slight dogleg, catches the "downside" of the ridge, which then acts as a turbo boost to propel the ball even further along.  The player who fails to land their ball on the correct side of the ridge has the opposite reaction, as their ball hits into the upslope, usually tends to run "away" from the hole, and leaves a much longer and sometimes semi-blind approach.

Sand Hills has some great ones, on holes such as 9, 11, 12, 16, & 18, and Shinnecock's 9th and 15th are classic examples, as well.  A similar type of thing is evident on the 4th hole at Pine Valley, although on a straighter hole where a shot hugging the tighter right side gets a big boost down the hill while shots to the safer left tend to slide further in that direction.

#10 at ANGC is also a good example.  #2 at NGLA is another good one where a successfully aggressive shot to the left side can actually reach the green, while the safe right side often ends up in a deep hollow.  

What do others here think of that type of feature and what are some other good examples?  Personally, I love them because they really put a premium on successful driving and are much more creative and enjoyable than just trying to drive it straight into a "tight" fairway guarded by rough or trees as an interesting test.  Plus, is there anything more enjoyable than watching your drive catch the correct side of the ridge and seeing it propelled into an even more advantageous position?

[Matthew Mollica]

With your posting Mike, I immediately thought of Greg Norman's Moonah Course at The National (Cape Schanck, Australia). It's third hole (Par 4, 365m / 402yds) features a diagonal ridge in the landing zone.

The ridge runs short left, to long right, and slings the ball towards the green a little, when correctly negotiated. The hole plays into a prevailing wind, but can have a howling tailwind some days.

The positioning of the ridge sees the golfer need to hit a draw, or hit a straight shot, down a tight left side. Slices are punished a little, as the ball is pushed right, into a small valley, giving the player a longer approach, and a semi-blind or totally blind shot to the green.

It is a wonderful hole, where a great natural feature has been well used, to add interest and strategy to play. Depending on wind, some take driver off the tee, while others take as little as 5 iron with a tail wind off the member's tees.

I think diagonal hazards or features are great in landing areas, and also on approaches to greens. They appear to give great flexibility to holes, with a 'bite off as much as you can / dare' philosophy prevailing...


Matthew

[Rick_Noyes]

Mike,
If not mistaken, the Tour pros call these "speed slots" and was one of the things they were trying to remodel out of ANGC.  If the players knew where they were, and they did, and could hit it there, and they can, it was making the course "too easy" or a "pushover".  

The ridge still seems to benefit the longer hitter if not placed where he/she could drive over it anyway.  Too far out, where only a select few could benefit, gives the longer hitter that much more of an advantage.  Too close in and the longer hitter doesn't get much benefit and the odds go up that it penalizes the shorter hitter even more so.

However, I do like the use of any feature placed on the diagonal.  For it does provide options.

This also seems to be the anti-philosophy of containment mounds.  Containment mounds only contain when the ball strikes the proper side of the mound.

Rick

[A_Clay_Man]

Mike- As I was reading your post I was overcome with the feeling of Lawsonia, with one exception, they aren't natural. Mind you they fit in because of the kettle moraine composition of Wisconsin but I always thought they were old railroad box cars with dirt thrown on top, but Dick has pointed out that that was a misnomer. I personally love them and would love to integrate something along those lines at the little nine holes here that needs some love. Also when I played SFGC I got the feeling of the diagonal bunker ridge speed slot off of many of Tillie's wavelike pieces of art.

[Lou Duran]

I liked them too, Mike, but like diagonal bunkering, they should be used judiciously, sparingly, and seldom over more than half the width of the fairway.  We have a couple of holes at my home club where 80%+ of the members can't carry the ridge, making the green often unreachable for them.  For the longer hitter, a short iron for the second shot is all that is needed.  Also, the short side of the ridge accumulates more water and is often soft, compounding the problem for the average golfer.  Where the course is generally firm and fast, and the ridges aren't that pronounced, it probably could provide some variety and interest for the shorter hitter (flatten the shot down and try to run it up the ridge).

[Mike_Cirba]

Rick Noyes;

I hear you with the containment mounding example, but does anyone actually TRY to aim at them?  

Aren't they put there as a last defense against a ball going completely awry instead of a mid-fairway feature to be strategically considered on the drive?

[Tim Weiman]

Rick Noyes:

You're right.

Some Tour pros and golf architects do use the term "speed slot", but this concept is not restricted to diagonal ridges.

When Tom Fazio built #3 at Sand Ridge, he did create a speed slot. But, it merely requires hiting the tee shot long and down the middle. The fairway isn't wide enough for even scratch players to think about placing the tee shot.

The ridge is at a point where most members can't get over it, even while playing from the regular tees. Moreover, even if you do, the next 20-30 yards are on a down slope where your ball is likely to stop and leave a less favorable lie.

RTJ also deployed this concept on the 8th hole at Ballybunion New, though in a far more dramatic way. The tee shot is a slight dogleg that requires one to consider how much to cut off. Then, there is a big hill steep enough to allow big hits to go all the way down to the bottom. If one does, it makes the hole (a long par five) play much easier. However, if you don't hit it just right, you can get hung up with an unfavorable lie making the 2nd and 3rd shots far more difficult.

[Rick_Noyes]

Mike,

What I was referring to was that whether or not a player is trying to hit a particular shot the ridges or mounds are there.  The outcome of the shot would be as I stated.  And, as I said, I like features placed on the diagonal because it allows the player to make the decision.

This is one of those features that brings out the tired old cliche every architect has used "making the course forgiving for the double digit handicapper while providing a challenge to the scratch player".  Which would hold true if an architect knew where everybody was going to hit it everytime they played the hole.  Which of course we don't.

That being said.  How far off is awry?  If you hit a drive that is say 10 yards off your intended line and a mound or ridge stops the ball from going off the planet, it's hooray for containment mounds.  If, however, your shot is 11 yards off line and you hit the back side of the mound into deeper doo-doo than had the mound not been there at all, it's who's the moron that put this mound here.

The point was that whether the feature is intended for strategic or containment, the outcome isn't always desired at any level of play.

[ChipOat]

Mike:

The "slingshot effect" on ridges like #2 at NGLA and #10 at ANGC accentuates the advantage that already exists for the long hitter.

I have no problem with this so long as the landing areas for Mr. Big are no wider than for the short knocker.

If they would narrow the landing area further down the hill at ANGC #10, it would be fine.  But the long hitter on that hole actually has a slightly WIDER fairway than those who play down the right/center.

That does not appeal to me at all.

But the green complex is so wonderful it's still a terrific hole, anyway.

[THuckaby2]

Chip - isn't this yet another reason why #2 NGLA is such a great golf hole?  The reward equals the risk... it's a darn long shot over the scrub going straight at the hole, to a pretty tight area... but IF you pull it off, not only do you get far closer to the hole (as you should for taking the direct route), but if you hit a REAL banger, you can catch that last little slope and get all the way to the green...

That alone to me makes the hole GREAT... but NO... genius CBMac throws in even MORE:  just to give the big hitters even MORE to think about, there's the very real possibility of taking that slope with too much speed, and going over the back - the place where doubles go to die....

Did I mention I love this golf hole?  

TH

[Steve Lang]

At #5 on WCC's Player Course we have about a 420 yd par 4 with a slight dogleg left, with a kidney shaped trap guarding the corner, but offset left, so that the line of charm is actually 5 yds off its elevated right edge which starts a diagonal ridge across the fairway.  

At far right end of ridge are two smallish traps that may capture some rollers, but leave 170-180 yd shot if you're short behind them.  A slice hits the right slope of the diagonal and feeds farther right leaving 190-220 out, while a charmed shot over the diagonal's center can kick to 150-140 yds from green, or if hit just off line can go straight for the right fairway traps.

Adding to fun is the fact of slight uphill shot if you're right of the diagonal and slight downhill shot if you're left of diagonal.

The green is protected by one large trap on right with a run-up area in front guarded by slight mound that may kick you right or left.

With all that said, its fun to go on the line of charm and carry the bunker's edge.  Over-cook it - hook it and you're in the trap or lefter woods..  Diagonal also helps divide the drainage.
Looks something like this

               GGGGGGGG  
              GGGGGGGG tttt
             GGGGGGG tttttt
              GGGGGGG ttttttt
                 GGGGGG  ttttt
  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                           150 yd
                                          ttt   tttt
                                      d     ttt    ttttt
                                    d
                                  d
                                d
                              d
                            d          
                         d
                       d
                     d
                  d
       tttt
  ttt      tttt      ~200 yd carry
           ttt           ^
          ttt             |
                          |
                          |  
                          |
                      



                          

[BCrosby]

There are speed slots on no. 9 a Cuscowilla and no. 2 at Wade Hampton.

I usually don't like them. The longer player already has the advantage of length. To give him added distance merely because he is long anyway strikes me anti-strategic and unfair.

Take no. 10 at ANGC.  There is no downside to going for the speed slot. Everyone does and the longer players get even longer and their approaches to the green get even shorter. Makes no strategic sense. (The original MacK version of the hole required you to leave your drive on the narrow shelf on the right to open up the green. A wonderfully strategic, short par 4. One of the great lost holes. But that's a topic for another thread.)

It's a whole different story, however, if there is some hazard to be risked before you can use the speed slot. A good example, as I recall, is no. 2 at Wade Hampton. There is trouble on the left that must be skirted to take advantage of the speed slot/downslope which is on that side of the fairway.

Bob

[Pete_Pittock]

Littlestone, on the English channel near Rye has its 16th hole with OB left and a diagonal ridge running away from you left to right. If you carry it flirting with the OB you don't get a turbo boost, but the par 5 green is reachable. If you don't carry you're left with a blind shot over the ten foot ridge.
One of my favorite holes anywhere

[John_Lovito]

Mike,

The restored par  5 16th at Plainfield uses cross-bunkers to achieve this effect.  When facing your second shot, you may choose to lay up short or left of the cross-bunkers, but this leaves you with anywhere from 175-220 yards and either a blind shot or lest then ideal angle into the green.  However, if you successfully challenge the bunkers you are rewarded with the sling shot effect and your ball should settle less than 100 yards from the green.

John

[John Foley]

Mike the 16th @ Sand Hills is a great one.

Another is #16 @ Hiawatha in Binghamton by Silva. Huge advantage playing down the left/inside of the dogleg.

[A_Clay_Man]

How about the tenth at Wild horse. With this inside dogleg bunker (that looks like the way to speed slot heaven) your had because on the unseen side is more bunker, not speed slot.    

[Mike_Cirba]

john_foley;

I just drove right past Hiawatha Landing this afternoon...nice timing with your post!    It was partially snow covered but I could still see a lot of it along Rte. 17.  

I played there a few years ago, and liked it quite a bit.  I do recall the 16th, and also recall missing the slot by hanging it out to the right.  At the same time a surly ranger was hanging on us (we weren't going anywhere with groups in front, but I assume he thought he had to bother someone) and I remember chunking my approach.  

[ChipOat]

Tom Huckaby:

Per my earlier message:

1) I'd like to see more danger in a hooked and/or pushed tee ball for Mr. Big on NGLA #2.  The fairway's no wider than for the short hitter but the only real disaster is being over the green.

2) Even downwind, going over that green from the back tees requires a BIG drive.  Only the longest of the long have to worry about that, IMO.

3) For a driveable par 4, there's not quite enough awful things that can happen on that hole for my taste.  #9 at The Belfry strikes me as more damaging for those who try and fail.

It's the old risk/reward equation that I'm considering here.

[THuckaby2]

Chip:

I can buy all of those "criticisms" of this hole that I love...  With all do repect, and adding an ocean of salt given I've seen the hole on person just once, I'd just say in very humble rebuttal:

1. Right on, correct.  A miss short or left ought to be punished more.  Caution needs to be used here though, as if you make the punishment TOO SEVERE, only the most foolish of fools will even try it... I'd say we want it to be looked at as "doable"... the carrot being held out there... get people really thinking....

2. Oh yes, going over the green isn't a concern for us mortals.  However, I was under the impression that when the course gets firm and fast, or that shot plays downwind, it is a consideration for the very strong... the ball takes off down the "ramp" and just doesn't stop until it reaches the perdition known as over the green.  Just the fact it's POSSIBLE adds that extra little "doubt" that underscores the genius of CBMac, for me anyway....

3. I don't look at this so much as a "driveable par 4" as a "great par 4".  For me there's just so much going on on the the hole, it's genius.  Yes, the hole at the Belfry where everyone laid up this year (wasn't it #10?) has more immediate penalty.... but if anything, there's less thought, the choices are more obvious, as proven as pro after pro laid up this year...  I'd agree that #2 NGLA needs a LITTLE more penalty on it to make it "perfect"... but I'd say erring on the side of less penalty isn't a bad thing.  It is only the 2nd hole... but man after the wonders of #1, what an introduction to the course...

TH