Designing Bunkers to putt out of?

[Brian Cenci]

Curious to know if architects design bunkers to putt out of or are they more products of maintenance and conditioning over the years of a course?

I happen to love putting out of bunkers, first off I have become very good at it and secondly I think that it provides a neat design element into a hole.  Particularly if a green slopes away from the bunker and gravity is not helping your normal sand shot to stay on the green.  Very few courses, nice courses (let me rephrase), have this element.  I've played many a crappy muni courses that you can putt out of, but the bunkers are so worn down and un-sculptured to begin with I doubt it was a design element.  

I happen to think there should be more bunkers that may require a different kind of sand shot also.  I've even become accustomed to using a 4-wood out of a bunker (with little or no lip) to take the place of a putter to get the ball up slightly.

[Tom_Doak]

Brian:  It's harder to build a bunker that way than you would think.  The Rules insist on having some defined edge to where the hazard ends, and the mower guys have to know where to stop without running over sand.  It's much easier to build them on a sandy site where you don't have to add bunker sand and topsoil and sod after you shape.

I love having an occasional chance to putt out of a bunker and there are times when it's the best play.  (Many players would disagree, thinking it totally defeats the purpose of having a bunker.)  As George Thomas pointed out in his book, a narrow and flat bunker penalizes the player who misses wide of it, without making it so difficult for the player who barely misses the green and winds up in the sand.

[Brian Cenci]

Tom,
     I know what you mean in regards to people thinking it's not apart of the game (putting out of a bunker), but I'm sure belly putters, chipping with utility woods, etc. can be viewed the same ways.  Whatever gets the job done.  I have an Odyssey two-ball and love using it around the green like a chip shot.  Sank two seperate shots from off the green in the rough recently using it just like a chip (coming down hard on the ball trapping it between the club and the ground).
     Anyways, I always find it a treat when I get to do it.  Recently did it on #4 at the downs from the bunker behind the green.  And #12, I've putted out of that one before, although you have to have the right line because some areas in that bunker have a small lip.

[Yannick Pilon]

First, let me say that I don't mind the occasional occasion where you can actually putt out of a bunker, even if I have never done it myself and that I don't generally feel it is the safest option....

However,  after seing the bunkers of the links courses of Scotland for the first time last month, I'm starting to feel that most bunkers (at least, in North America) are way to easy to get out of.  And that includes the occasional opportunity to putt out of a bunker.

IMHO, bunkers are mostly meant to be hazards, and you should stay away from hazards.  Flirt with them as much as possible, but stay away from them if you don't want to suffer the conscequences.  

I am so glad that we are starting to see more and more of natural looking bunkers that are deep with big thick lips framed with fescues and indigenous plants.  These bunkers are not only more beautiful in my mind, but they are also create fear to some degree in the golfers mind (at least it works for me!).

So, make the bunkers more penal!  Not easier....  Let's stop making bunkers the golfers aim for because they are so easy to get out of....  Let's use the fluffy sand, let's put fewer rakes around them, let's make them deeper, and bring back those big thick lips!

So, to answer the question, I don't think that architects build bunkers you can putt out of.  I think they evolve like that.  I don't personnaly think we should try to do it either.

[Brian Cenci]

Yannick,
     There's different ways to view a bunker.  It can be a hazard yes, but to varying degrees.  Should you penalize a player more who barely misses a green and goes into a bunker than a player who completely misses a green and the bunkers and now has a shot to the green not out of the bunker (see Tom's comment)?  
     Bunkers should penalize to some extent but they should not decapitate you from the hole or your round.  I feel far too many bunkers over-penalize a player.  Good bunkers should compliment the hole, not define the hole and define its diffculty.  And having a bunker that you can putt out of doesn't make it easier.  Not enough people try the shot anyways so what does it matter.  All I'm saying is some variety is good and if that means more bunkers that I can slap my putter at a ball out of they I'm all for that.

[Jason Topp]

I'm a big fan of having the opportunity to putt out of bunkers. A few years ago, the bunkers at the course I was playing at the time lacked sand and edges and I was struggling with my bunker shots.  I did it as often as possible to avoid a big number.  It is terrific fun to get it up and down with a putter out of the bunker in a match, thereby pissing off a good player on the green.

I rarely do it now after a Dave Pelz one day school in which they corrected my set up and some practice.

My favorite bunker to putt out of is on the back nine of the Long Mean course at Fiddlesticks in Fort Myers, Florida (#12).  It has railroad ties on the greenside of the bunker, but they are tilted at around a 45 degree angle, allowing a putt to get on the green, and with practice, to get pretty close.  I've always thought that was a terrific design feature.  Most middle handicap players are terrible out of the sand,  The opportunity to putt allows them to make a choice between risking a big number trying to get it close or safely getting down in 3.  For the better player, it probably makes no difference what the lip is like unless it is huge.

[peter_p]

at the Reserve Vineyards there are a couple of bunkers I can putt from, at times, because there is no discernable lip. My decision is based on the compaction of the sand, and the depth of the intervening grass.

Tom,
 while the rules of golf say there is a defining edge to the bunker, it doesn't say that the architect has to contruct it, the Committee may get into the act at some point. IMHO  

[TEPaul]

"The Rules insist on having some defined edge to where the hazard ends,..."

TomD:

The Rules of Golf do not insist on any such thing. Matter of fact the Rules do not mention such a thing as a defined edge of a bunker. What the Rules do is define what is and what isn't part of a bunker by explaining that grass covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked sod turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen) is not part of a bunker. The Rules also explain that the margin of a bunker does not extend vertically upward. Therefore a ball bordering or even within a bunker that is within grass and not touching sand  within a bunker is not in the bunker. Some people who are either too unaware or too unconfident to make a determination of whether a ball is within or without a bunker may insist on a defined edge of a bunker but the Rules of Golf do no such thing.