[Mike_Cirba]

I have been surprised to see that pretty consistently, scoring in the US Amateur qualifying in the Philly district has been much higher at shortish Llanerch CC than at Rolling Green, whose elevated greens and ticklish putting slopes can be a nightmare of difficulty.

I played Llanerch for the first time recently and was intrigued at how challenging it is.  Despite a recent renovation by Stephen Kay, in which a lot of trees were removed, the course still plays pretty tight, simply because the original hole corridors are just not very wide.

It got me wondering.  Counter to our prevailing thinking, is the toughest test for the low-handicap amateur simply a tree-lined test where they have to keep the ball straight, or face a long day?  

Certainly the greens and surrounds of the old Alex Findlay course at Llanerch are nowhere near as sophisticated and difficult as those at Rolling Green, so why the difference in scoring with Llanerch being the tougher?  

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Could have something to do with the conditions. I was told that the greens don't have much going for them speed-wise, probably because of the age. The fairways are quite soft as well.

Rolling Green is also playing soft and if you are able to hit big and make a few putts, going low isn't too much of a problem. Our own Jamie Slonis is +1 for the qualifier through 12 at Rolling Green, and he told me his irons haven't been on... just a lot of good lag putting. Maybe he'll chime in later.

Also, the new bunkers at Llanerch haven't settled... so there must be a lot of plugging going on. I noticed there was a lot of BIG numbers on some holes and on nines or rounds of fairly consistent play as well.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

When I played Llanerch a week and a half ago, the greens were in pretty good shape.  The fairways were a bit thin and the rough was thin as well, although the grass was long.  The ball would almost always settle "down".  

You're right about the bunkers, though.  I had a few doozy lies, but bunker maven that I am, I sort of loved and deserved the penalty.

Still, it has several very short par fours, two easily reachable par fives, and not much in the way of penal hazards like water.  To see players of that caliber shooting some really high scores has me wondering.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

Jamie Slonis was saying that a lot of the fours were set up such that after you played, you realized going for the green off the tee was the play. Apparently a lot of the fairways were narrowed (ie 15) though I'd imagine he could explain it better.

Maybe a lot of shortsiding of greens was going on... I saw some people hit a few doozies today at Rolling Green. Looking at the scores coming in, it seems that Llanerch's standard deviation may be less than Rolling Green's though.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

I'm not sure.  There seems to be a LOT of scores in the 80s at Llanerch, including one poor fellow who came in from Sioux Falls, SD only to shoot a 90 at Llanerch.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

Kyle and I talked a bit about this out at RGGC today.  I can't speak for the set-up at Llanerch except that I heard the turf quality rapidly deteriorated over the last week or so and the greens have really gone down the terlet.  I don't know if this is true or not.  I do know that the bunkers were sanded in May and that's too short a time to be ready for something like US Am qualifying.  The lies, as you stated, were particularly bad from what I've heard from friends that played in the qualifying there.

I did notice the pin positions at RGGC were mid-week easy.  It may have something to do with the conditions on the greens themselves, though I doubt it.  The pin on 13 was in some real bad stuff....like they made their minds up already and went ahead despite changing turf quality.  The whole front of the green was in good shape and that's a much harder pin position.  The soft greens and soft fairways and easy pin positions combined for relatively low scores.  

As it is, the scoring spectrum was pretty wide at both with the scores slightly higher at Llanerch.  That surprises me, too.  Day in and day out RGGC is much more difficult and a much better design.  Yesterday, with Ault shooting 63 at RGGC, there were only 2 other scores under par.

[mike_malone]

 Yesterday's average at RG was 77 --LCC-78. RG has one more par three. RG played as par 70 (You should be happy Wayne-18 as par four) LCC as 71. I haven't looked at Tuesday's scoring yet.

    I think that the tree line is much closer at LCC ; this costs a 1/2 stroke penalty a couple of times a round. This adds to the extra scoring. I imagine even these good golfers had to deal with this factor.
   
   I also think the greens are smaller which leads to more up and down versus putting over an 18 hole stretch.

   

[mike_malone]

 I want to say that Llanerch should be given great credit for the work they did to  their course. From all the way back it was fun.

[wsmorrison]

I spoke to a lot of golfers at Rolling Green over the last two days.  Not one thought that the finishing hole should be a par 5 from any tee box.  I totally agree, as I have maintained for years and think you ought to reconsider your position on this, Mike.  I would've had the tees back a bit further on the members tee.  But I'm glad they played it as a par 4.  Whose decision was it?

With quite a number of players using irons off the 10th tee (243 yards uphill) it looks like there will be serious consideration for putting in the Flynn tee at 260+ sometime.  That would be cheap to build and maintain and would work fine.

I'm glad we had all these outstanding players come through.  It puts a lot into perspective.  Yet it is important that there are no knee-jerk reactions to some of the low scores.  Overall, under benign conditions and easy pins the course did provide a nice test as there were not that many scores under par.   The spotty greens and fairways probably added a stroke or two to the field average.

Too bad Mother Nature did not comply.  Conditions were definitely off.  Firm and fast would have been ideal and would have offered a nice way to see how the course would stand up to these talented guys.

[Mike_Cirba]

I want to say that Llanerch should be given great credit for the work they did to  their course. From all the way back it was fun.

Mike,

Absolutely!  It was fun, a lot of holes offer a heck of a lot more dimensions now than they did previously, and if they did indeed soften the slopes of some greens, just imagine what the scores would have been if they hadn't?

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

What club were most players hitting into 18?

[ChrisHervochon]

I played Rolling Green in qualifying on Monday, and contrary to what this thread is indicating, I thought that it played quite difficult!  There were some really difficult hole locations out there, most of which are not hard to access from the fairway, but close putts seemed to be quite testy.  I guess that's the beauty of Philly style golf courses, which I do enjoy!  The greens were not rolling well at all, and pin positions such as those on 4, 5, 7, 9, 12, and especially 14 seemed to be the hardest on their respective greens.  I particularly thought 14 was difficult because it is such a long hole, with a fairly small target to be hitting a 2-iron at.  I think Rolling Green is a much more difficult golf course to score on because of all the elevation changes as well as the conditions.  When you are trying to hit the ball to a specific section of the green, controlling distance up those elevation changes just to have a reasonable putt left proves quite difficult, I think.  The gentleman I played with there shot 67, and was 5 under after nine holes.  From my spectators position, he played an almost flawless round of golf, and even was a bit lucky at times.  Llanerch, on Tuesday, I thought played particularly difficult by Llanerch standards, and I really only have issues with two holes out there which I think are a bit gimmicky as far as the greens are concerned:  4 and 8.  On the 4th hole there is almost nowhere to hit the ball, as runup shots, I feel, are necessary but not particularly encouraged.  Overall, it was one of the better setups I have seen the GAP produce, and it showed in those that qualified.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

The 18th played around 475-yards as I recall.  Burt McHugh is not long with his irons and he used a 4-iron after a good drive (he's pretty long with his woods).  Most of the young limber-backs were hitting 5 and 6 irons after good drives. I saw a few 7 and one 8 iron from long hitters.  These guys were hitting it 300-320 downhill.  As you know, they then had an uphill approach to the big green.

Thank you, Chris, for your commentary.  I don't think RGGC played easy from my vantage point as caddie on Monday and observer on Tuesday.  It was harder from your position!  The wind became a factor on Tuesday afternoon making Jamie's round quite good.  He'll probably look back at 7-iron into the green on 7 and not making birdie.  I bet he would 90% of the time!

One thing I noticed, and I'm sure it was true at Llanerch as well, is that the greens were so heavily trafficked that putting through all the spike marks was difficult late on each course on the first day and certainly the entire second day at both courses.  That's a result of pins being kept in the same spot both days.  I know you have to ensure the same locations but the conditions are not at all the same, so maybe it is best to move them to what is judged equivalent positions.

In my opinion, the hardest pin positions were rarely employed.  On some greens, such as the 14th as you said, all the pin positions are hard.  8 and 13 would have been much tougher in the front of the greens.  3 would have been much more difficult back right.  4 would have been hardest front left.  5 is hard everywhere, that is one of the greatest complexity of slope greens I've seen.  In firm conditions, I think the front right pin is toughtes because you have to land the ball short and left of the green to get near a front right pin.  Under the competition conditions, back right (fall-off and fronting bunkers) would have been tougher.  6 was pretty tough, middle left is tougher.  7 has a lot of tough pin postions due to the cant and the contour.  8 is far tougher to a front left position.  It was all the way in the back which is pretty easy.  9 wasn't easy.  10 back right is a hard pin position.  11 back left would have been more difficult.  12 is such a small green there are no easy pins but back right is hard with the fall-off and front left is difficult with the visual of the bunker in front left and bunkers behind on the hill.  15 is more difficult to a front pin as it brings the bunkers more into play and a lot of downhill putts that keep going off the green.  The rear pin was in a very patchy spot.  Too bad 16 was lost---there were no easy putts; even from 4-feet.  17 back left is difficult as a lot of balls, especially going for it in two, go through the green and you're left with a tough chip running away from you out of heavy rough.  18 anything on the right side is more difficult, especially in the front.  

[TEPaul]

"I know you have to ensure the same locations but the conditions are not at all the same, so maybe it is best to move them to what is judged equivalent positions."

Wayne:

No can do in stroke play qualifying--basically the rules don't allow that. This two day affair on two courses is a new one on me regionally though, so keeping the pins the same over two days seems pretty odd but understandable and explainable.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I know it is the law.  But the law is an ass, as Mr. Bumble would say.  The resulting conditions on the greens, bad as they were, were made worse.  However, I guess turf conditions prevented rolling the greens and smoothing out the irregularities from the spikes.

Especially on the 12th, I noticed several fresh ball marks that were not repaired.

[Philippe Binette]

Young players play a lot better on more open and modern courses than on short narrow courses full of trees.

On short and narrow courses, they don't know how to manage them by thinking the course backward.

For young players, any 400 yards hole is now a birdie opportunity when they should have less than 130 yards into the green. (on modern courses especially)

So when they arrive at a short and narrow course and a hole is 400 yards, they are reluctant to hit a 230 yards 3-iron of the tee just to put the ball and play and leave a 170 yards 7-iron. They feel they can't play that. They instead hit 3-wood and make a mistake behind trees, chip out, press their next shot, miss the green, fail to get up and down, here we go double bogey.

They are more comfortable playing a 450 yard hole on a modern course that plays driver 7-iron because they feel they have a short iron into the green for such a long hole.

Short narrow courses full of trees are non-existant on Tour, except maybe Westchester... and nobody score on it

[JSlonis]

The added length at Llanerch works very well.  Hopefully the club will get the turf problem straightened out on the fairways and tees.

There were a few things that I wasn't too keen on in regard to the work that was done at Llanerch:

1.  While some tree work was done, I feel they could've have been more aggressive in this area.

2.  To me, it seems that the newly redone bunker style does not fit the parkland style course.  The newer bunkers have a wispy, fescue edged appearance to them that look like they belong on a different type/style of golf course.

3.  The 15th hole!  For those of you who don't know the course, #15 at Llanerch is a short par 4, 315-325 from the back tees.  The hole used to be a very tight tree lined hole, that was best played with a long iron tee shot and a wedge approach.  The redone 15th hole is quite different.  There were a lot of trees taken out on this hole...which is good. There were additional bunkers put in in the landing area.  This would be okay if the original fairway width was maintained.  It was not.  The newly constructed bunkers on the left, now pinch into the fairway, creating a 15 yard wide strip of fairway from about 125 yards from the green to about 50 yards.  Basically now there are only two plays for the golfer, hit a mid iron to lay up, leaving 130 yards or blast a driver to the green.  For the better player, the risk of hitting the driver around the green is less than it is if he was to lay up.  I can't see anyone trying to hit a tee shot into the very narrow fairway in order to leave a 75-100 yard wedge shot.  With the very good tree removal, this should have created more options for the golfer, but with the cramped in placement of the bunkers, effective options were taken away.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Jamie,

I completely agree on all counts, although the whiskers on the bunkers do achieve a penal end.

On the 15th the other day, I hit what I thought was a good drive that ended about 40 yards short of the green in the left hand encroaching bunker.  Worse yet, it was plugged.  

Playing the course for the first time, I didn't realize exactly what to do but it does seem that instead of creating more options, there are now more limited options for play.  

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