Who said this?

[Tom Doak]

This is a direct quote from an obscure book.  To whom does it belong?

"What really makes a golf course great is, first, the contouring around the greens and, second, the shape of the greens.  You always hear people say that the size of a green should depend on the length of the shot normally played to the green; in other words, the longer the approach shot, the bigger the green.  Not true.  The size of a green is dictated by the severity of the hazards around that green and also by how the green itself is contoured."

[Bill_McBride]

Maybe not a direct quote, but sounds a lot like Tom Doak, "Anatomy of a Golf Course," in the chapter on Green Complexes.  Coincidentally I am reading this right now.

Couldn't agree more!  

[Matthew Mollica]

I hope by that response Bill, that you're not suggesting Tom's book is obscure  


I would have suspected a golden age architect as the likely answer...

Perhaps Tillie ? The quote is along similar lines to his description of the greens at Winged Foot as varying, much like the faces of different people....

Matthew

[Bill_McBride]

"Obscure" could be a modest reference to one's own work!
On page 98-99 of "Anatomy," Tom says, "Many people believe that in the name of equity, the size of the green should be in direct proportion to the length of the expected approach shot, but this would only be true if we had to make every hole of equal difficulty.  Often great holes go directly against this simplistic definition of shot values."
He goes on to reference #2 at Pine Valley, "a short par 4 with a very large green.  The green needs to be big considering the severity of the surrounding hazards and the forced-carry approach."
"At the other end of the spectrum, the Road Hole at St. Andrews has an extremely long approach shot to an extremely narrow target.  It is intended to be a severe hole for the good player, and the green is just the right size to present an interesting third shot to the majority of the players not home in two [I'll say!]."
Great thematic design logic and guidance, not obscure in the slightest!  This is a paraphrasing of Tom's premise in the initial post but certainly directly to the point.

[ian]

I'm with Matthew, A.W. Tillinghaust

[ed_getka]

Obscure also depends on what audience you are talking about. "Anatomy..." is obscure to the average golfer, while obscure to most on this site is a totally different thing. The quote doesn't sound like Tom's writing style, but I don't have a good guess as to who wrote it.

[Tom Doak]

I wouldn't promote my own quote, for God's sake ... but I was struck by how similar this quote was to what I'd written.  I had not looked at this book for years.

It's not Tillinghast, either.

[bakerg (Guest)]

Donald Ross?

[Mike_Cirba]

Not all architects practiced what they preached...

For that reason, I'll guess that it was Robert Trent Jones, Sr.

[Joel_Stewart]

Tom Doak: Do you agree or disagree with this statement?  It may be true at Lost Dunes but not true at Pacific Dunes.

Personally I think the quote came from Dick Wilson.

Furthermore for the other that said Bill Coore, I doubt it came from him but it shows in his work.

[Michael Moore]

Tom Fazio said this.

[Steve Curry]

Tom,
Hurzdan?

Steve

[redanman]

I, too suspect RTJ.  The book is likely Golf's Magnificent Challenge.  



BV

[ian]

Well my initial thought before Tillie was it was from Pete Dye's "Bury me in a pot bunker"

So I shall continue to embarass myself with bad guesses.

[Tom Doak]

It's a quote from Pete Dye, a preface to explaining his ideal course to Mark Mulvoy of SPORTS ILLUSTRATED, out of a book written in 1977, "Golf:  The Passion and The Challenge".

I actually thought that description was one of the few original thoughts I'd had in the "Anatomy," but I guess not.  He also talks about why he thinks more courses in the future will be par-71, and about his Ross and MacKenzie and Tillinghast phases at Crooked Stick.

I had read this interview long before I went to work for Pete, and at the time I still remembered it well ... so when he started to explain to me what he wanted to do in the plans for PGA West, I already understood most of what he wanted.  Pete never knew that, though.

I don't think that most people realize how much of what I do comes from my time around Pete Dye -- not the look of the courses certainly, but the thought of what I'm doing.  The same goes for Bill Coore and Pete; neither one of us has fallen that far from the tree.

[TEPaul]

It is a lot of food for thought--a really excellent quote!

[TEPaul]

Tom Doak:

It should probably be another thread and maybe you don't even want to answer but what do you see as the basic similarities or differences between you and Bill Coore in your architectural viewpoint, style, principles, whatever?

Did the two of you work for Pete Dye at the same time or was Bill with him before you?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

I understand the bigger green with severe hazards concept.

I wonder if you could explain whether Pete said big greens are necessary when highly contoured as a result of the traditional "we need the same amount of flat cup space, regardless of green size" or if he had some other playability ideas in mind?

BTW, I called Pete and Alice while nearby in Florida, and Pete sounded great, and as if he was making an extremely good recovery.