Did Ross do Pinehurst#2 greens at any of his other courses?

[cary lichtenstein]

Just curious if Ross's greens at #2 are unique to Ross?

From the Ross courses I have played Aroninimk, Plainfield,  East Lake and others in the Chicago area, the #2 greens seem very very different. Those other courses have mostly huge very undulating greens.

Not being from the East Coast, I haven't played that many other courses of Ross.

[Pete Lavallee]

Cary,

If you are a USGA Member, you should have received a US Open magazine with a hole by hole decription. In it there was an excellent article by Tom Doak, with his take on the evolution of the #2's greens and why they are so unique.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Some of the greens at Pine Needles down the road from #2 are similar, with fall-offs on the sides, although the scale isn't nearly the same.  #2's greens are pushed up a lot more.

Of the 14 Ross courses (one is part Ross) I've played, that's the only one that had that much similarity.

[mtp]

Supposedly, Sara Bay in Sarasota, FL has similar greens. I have yet to play though.

[michael j fay]

Sara Bay has a small amount of the Pinehurst influence, though the greens were altered. Pine Needles has a little of it as well but not nearly as much. You can find some of the roll-offs on the # 1 and # 3 course at Pinehurst.

Many of his ther courses have false fronts, some have abrupt sides and all dictate death for those that overshoot.

All of Ross's greens that I have encountered demand navigation of altitiude change as well as lateral movement.
Ross defended par at the greens. 57 years after his demise they do a pretty good job.

[Brent Hutto]

Pine Needles certainly has enough rolloffs to give a threesome of 15-20 handicappers fits. We played there over a year ago and I think my friend Dave still has bad dreams about approach shots that land in the middle of the green and end up in bunkers. He must have bounced, trickled or rolled into at least a dozen bunkers over 36 holes and some of his bunker shots rolled or trickled off the green on the other side, including at least a couple of bunker-to-bunker adventures.

All this was before the recent work by John Fought, BTW.

[Dave_Miller]

Just curious if Ross's greens at #2 are unique to Ross?

From the Ross courses I have played Aroninimk, Plainfield,  East Lake and others in the Chicago area, the #2 greens seem very very different. Those other courses have mostly huge very undulating greens.

Not being from the East Coast, I haven't played that many other courses of Ross.

Quassi:
Tom Paul needs to weigh in on this.  He has a very good understanding of how the Pinehurst Greens became so severe.  I'm not sure they were actually designed to be saucer shaped in so many places.  Tom gave me a history of these once that seemed to indicate some of the shape came when some type of drainage work was being done.  

TEPaul where are you when we need you
Best
Dave

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul where are you when we need you.

Dave:

I'm back at home worn to a pulp. That's a long and tedious drive all the way from Philly to London Ontario to Frankfort Michigan and back to Philadelphia.  

The account of how the greens of Pinehurst #2 came to be the way they now are was from an account related to me by Stephen Kay. Those greens were always quite crowned apparently but according to Stephen Kay's account the sides of the greens are more sloped or fall off more now than they ever used to. According to his account they're more that way now due to a solution that was used basically to correct a  height miscalculation when they changed the greens to USGA specs.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom

All I want to know is...was Rees Jones involved?    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cary,

How do the greens at # 1, # 3, # 4 and # 5 compare to the greens at # 2 ?

Are there any similarities.

Norman Eig says to say hello.

[Scott Ramsay]

I have worked at four DR courses(and played many others) and have only seen the saucer factor at my last stop The Orchards in S.Hadley. The 10th,16th and somewhat the 14th are inverted and repell shots. The green and chipping areas were expanded to enhance the effect also. I know during the Open preparation the 10th and 16th were integral in the decision to keep the green speeds more moderate.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

According to Stephen Kay those involved were the Nicklaus Company and a man by the name of Edward Connor who developed a laser device to accurately record the minute grades of putting greens. According to Stephen they got all the minute grades of the internal contours correct but miscalculated on the total height of all the USGA levels and so they couldn't exactly tie-in correctly to the surrounds or peripheries of the greens. WHOOPS!  

To solve the problem they simply tied in anyway but that created more slope around the edges of the greens!  

[Wayne Freeman]

I've played a bunch of Ross courses now and I don't think any of the others have near the radial nature of the greens at #2.  Pinehurst was the first Ross course I ever played and I was sure I would never want to play another because of how rough a day it was there... but I've loved every Ross course since then.  Sometimes with all the false fronts and super fast speeds they can be a little too much though.  

[Rob_Waldron]

MC

Of course Rees Jones was involved. He did the re-design of the greens complexes in 1996. The Golf Channel interviewed him about it last week.

[cary lichtenstein]

Pat:

I haven't played any of the other Ross Pinehurst courses

Say hi back to Eig

Cary

[Patrick_Mucci]

MC

Of course Rees Jones was involved. He did the re-design of the greens complexes in 1996. The Golf Channel interviewed him about it last week.

Where did you get this information ?

According to Michael Moore and others, Rees Jones only added back tees on select holes in 1996.[/color]

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

That sounds about right and is clearly an explanation I can understand.  I never could understand how every green built before 1960 wouldn't be several feet higher now if that Topdressing story held water.  I've heard of Connor's work and it's generally pretty sound and amazing technology, but I can understand how the Whoops! happened, as well.

Patrick,

As far as Rees, who else would you expect me to blame?  

Isn't he the Open Doctor in question?  

[Kelly Blake Moran]

I think the grandeaur of the greens is not the result of some 16" or less miscalcualtion, rahter it has much to do with the depth of the greens surrounds as well, meaning the swales, the low points around the greens either as a result of the cutting, or a combination of the cutting around the greens and the filling on the greens has created some magnificent elevation changes almost all the the around many of the greens.  The fact that these surrounds seem to be planted in a dwarf bermuda is dramatic, just magnificent.

[Mike_Young]

TE,
Ed Connor used the standard Theodolite type machine we all use.  He just marketed himself and did a good job.
As KBM says the elevation change during the transition from green to green complex of the complex is what makes the place.
And again we have a DR myth in the making.