[mike_malone]

 I played Stone Harbor on Sunday and Merion West on Monday. You cannot have two more different experiences.

   My conclusion--- Stone Harbor is not a "golf" course. I'm not sure what it is, but it is not golf. Possibly it is  "Purgatory"--a temporary hell that thankfully ends . How do people find enjoyment in just missing the fairway and ending up with a blind shot over containment mounds to unseen trouble ahead?  How many times can you play a hole with parallel water that affords only one option--"avoid it"? And when you do hit it in the water you add a stroke and do it again! What's with the constant adding of strokes without hitting the ball!

   Neither I nor my host finished the last hole with its water in front and to the right of the green. I hit my second in the water; had to try another (for the fun of it!)--in the water again. Then moved to the drop area; hit once more--just short--then quit.

  I asked my host " How many people don't finish the last hole?" She said " Quite a few."

            Is this "golf"?

      "Golf" seems to me to  be  a game created for a place like Merion West. Many holes  exist here where the placement of the drive created interesting challenges for the next shot. One felt that they could overcome these challenges even if they failed often. "Failure" becomes your fault, not some head shaking feeling that "this is a stupid hole". The sense that one can execute the shot is "golf". The mixture of short holes with very interesting greens and some very strong holes that rival the East course just keeps you smiling.
 
     The drop shot 115 par three (#6, I think) is a classic example of a golf hole. I played with a couple of 20 hdcpers. We waited on the tee for a foursome that seemed to be all 30+.

    EVERYONE STOOD ON THAT TEE AND THOUGHT THEY COULD HIT THAT LITTLE GREEN.
   

   The reality is  that very few did.


    When I hit the green at the par 3 #6 at Stone Harbor I am just amazed  because I can't believe I did it. (It is 160 ish from an elevated tee over water which goes around the green.)




    Being engaged  in a challenge where you feel success is possible is "golf". When it just feels like  you are subjecting yourself to some punishment then it is insane.

    So maybe Stone Harbor is an insane asylum.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm heading to a wedding in Stone Harbor on Friday.  

Your post has some sadistic part of me wishing I was playing there this weekend.  

[mike_malone]

 Mike,
     I was chided because I did not feel an overpowering urge  "to go back to the first tee " at Hidden Creek.


   I will keep my pledge to myself to "never play SH again!".

[George Pazin]

Nice to hear something about Merion West. I know Tom P has spoken highly of that little par 3, but I can't remember anyone else doing so! Thanks.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,
     I was chided because I did not feel an overpowering urge  "to go back to the first tee " at Hidden Creek.


   I will keep my pledge to myself to "never play SH again!".

Mike,

I misspoke...my urge was not sadistic, but masochistic!

I've never played SH before, but I'm eager to.  I'm sure it would be enlightening and educational, for better or worse.

On the other point, "overpowering urges" are tough to fake.  No one should berate anyone for not having a similar gut reaction.

[wsmorrison]

George,

The 6th green on the West Course was raised several feet in the early 1920s by William Flynn.  In a practice round for the 1916 Amateur Bobby Jones putted off the green into the stream.  He was just getting used to the speed of northern bent grasses.  Both the East and West courses were used for qualifying; the first time a single club had 2 courses available for the qualifying.

The West Course is a course that seems to throw you back in time.  There are few bunkers and much better topography than the East Course.  Just weeks prior to the 1916 Amateur, they still hadn't decided which of the two courses would host the match play, eventually settling on the East Course.  In the early days of both courses they were considered equals.  The changes made to the East Course between the 1916 and 1924 Amateurs really separated the two courses in terms of championship tests.  Today the West Course is both fun and challenging.  The perfect course for Bill Dow and his hickories.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

  Since I have never been inland to play in Great Britain, I can't say for sure. But, are the greens on flatter ground at the West course modeled after courses in that area of the world? The first hole comes to mind with its wonderful "trench" and the #10 ? where a lump sits in the middle and the fairway goes right off the back of the green into the next tee. I also loved  the downhill hole that has a green that looks like "floppy" hat. It sits a few feet off the ground with no bunkers.


     The uphill greensites are challenging such as #18 and the long dogleg left uphill hole, but the "flattish" ones are simply divine.

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

I've got to introduce you to the "Big World" theory of golf course architecture. Are you available this Friday night? If so Wayne and I will meet you at the Springfield Diner at 7:30pm! We'd appreciate it if you got there at 7:25pm and took the inside seat in the booth we've reserved!  

[mike_malone]

 Tom,

   I'm okay with  a "Big World " theory of golf architecture. But SH is "otherworldly".

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
There are a couple places I play in the Catskills that have some extremely penal, and perhaps silly, holes due to the terrain. You know, things like blind drives from out of a chute which must carry over a stone wall that borders a ravine to a fairway that tilts to the left on a dogleg right down hill to a narrow green protected by a pond on the right and a fallaway off the back into thick woods. Or a par 4 that's 365 uphill with four tiers, or plateaus, dug into the hillside that act as landing areas. How about a par 3 where the green sits 80' above the tee?

We have a blast, we load up on used balls and only use a format that doesn't rely on an 18 hole total score, such as skins, wolf,
four ball, etc.. Not caring about overall score makes the oddball
holes fun, even if you lose a few balls.

I wouldn't want a steady diet of it but it is fun a few time a year.

[mike_malone]

 When I lived in Vt. we played Sugarbush occasionally. There was one hole with a rock ledge on the right and a blind downhill tee shot. There were trees on the left as well. It was tough.

    I just have come to a view that parallel water violates the spirit of golf. No chance to hit a shot and just add a stroke.

    It helps to play games where each shot does not count.

    BUT I WANT TO HIT THE BALL!!!

[wsmorrison]

 Wayne,

"Since I have never been inland to play in Great Britain, I can't say for sure. But, are the greens on flatter ground at the West course modeled after courses in that area of the world? The first hole comes to mind with its wonderful "trench" and the #10 ? where a lump sits in the middle and the fairway goes right off the back of the green into the next tee. I also loved  the downhill hole that has a green that looks like "floppy" hat. It sits a few feet off the ground with no bunkers.


The uphill greensites are challenging such as #18 and the long dogleg left uphill hole, but the "flattish" ones are simply divine."

Mike,

Do you have a million monkeys sitting at keyboards typing this stuff for you?  It doesn't make much sense to me.  Try getting a few more monkeys  

Here's a photo of the 9th green and the 10th tee melded into the green complex.  Note the mound on the front left (our right) of the green...it is a cool old feature that just works on that throwback course.  It is not in the middle of the fairway as you recalled.



How could and why would you speculate about greens on flatter parts of the course being modeled after something you've never seen before?

With that aside, why do you think the greens on the flat holes are divine and the greens on the hillier parts of the course not as much so?  I think they are all very interesting in their own way.  The 12th is one of my favorite greens on the course.

I thought you believed that flat holes were uninteresting and you needed dramatic undulations for great or divine holes.  What are you saying?

The downhill green that looks like a floppy hat?  I have no idea what that is, can you offer a bit more information so I can try to figure it out?

This defensiveness and the reference of you not ever being in England all goes back to your analysis of Hidden Creek, such as it was.  You made comments and the support you gave was just too weak to give credibility to your statements--even when there is room for subjectivity.  You said at the time that the trees were all of the same height and that was a bad thing.  Come on, that kind of thought process contains little thought.  Make bold statements, that's a lot of the fun on this site, but have some evidence that supports them and doesn't question your analysis methods.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Stupid question, why not just hit it long on the last hole?

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

Those mounds look like they could have been mowed a lot closer back in the day... do you know anything about that?

As for the thread topic:

I think I can tell a bad course when I lie awake at night worrying if I am going to be able to afford to lose the golf balls I am probably going to lose (one in a round is within reason... five or six is ridiculous). In fact, it's the reason I didn't play my most recent home course as much as I could have... if I wasn't firing on all cylinders, I stood to lose a lot of money.

Golf Courses shouldn't make you fear playing them, period. They should make you nervous and even unsettled, but never scared or worried.

If I am worried on the golf course, why the hell am I playing the game?

I think courses need to be set up so the only thing affected for bad execution or planning is your ego, not your wallet. However, this is not to say that all courses need to be devoid of lost ball potential, it just needs to be reasonable.

I could play the Penn State courses and there is one hole where a lost ball is possible.

I could play Talamore, and EVERY hole there is a potential for a lost ball.

[wsmorrison]

"I just have come to a view that parallel water violates the spirit of golf. No chance to hit a shot and just add a stroke.

It helps to play games where each shot does not count.

BUT I WANT TO HIT THE BALL!!!"

What do you mean?

The spirit of golf is violated by the parallel water design feature?  If it were on every hole, there would be some merit to this.  What about natural water features?  You wouldn't want a seaside course to use the seaside?  Or a lakeside course to use  a lake?  Good thing Yorktown Country Club by Flynn was NLE'd or you'd start questioning him as well.

What's wrong with it every once in a while for variety?  How different is a parallel water hazard to a ravine or cliff right off the fairway where the ball is sure to be lost?  You'd better stay away from the Cascades, Country Club of York, Philadelphia Country Club and a host of other courses.

Do you really think the spirit of golf (whatever that could be) is violated?  Maybe it doesn't suit your taste.  But violating a spirit, isn't that going too far?  

Kyle,

Your point is well taken.  It is OK to have lost ball potential on one or a few holes but your old course takes it to an extreme.

Mike,

What about out of bounds left on 7 and right on 11 at Rolling Green.  These parallel hazards are even more punishing in that it is stroke and distance.  If it is water, isn't it just stroke?  

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,
     I was speaking of a hump in the green not fairway.

 Jim,
   
   On a real golf course the option to hit it long would exist. At Stone Harbor#18--out of bounds is there.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
I was thinking one club long, like to the back of the green or just over. Is the OB tight against the back?

[wsmorrison]

"Those mounds look like they could have been mowed a lot closer back in the day... do you know anything about that?"

Kyle,

I don't know for sure.  I'll ask Richie Valentine.  If I had to guess, I'd say the fairways were a lot wider and that was probably fairway height.  Which in the olden days was what, 3/4-1 inch?

Bill Dow and I were on our way to Hartefeld to see the Furyk charity event and we're driving by Bryn Mawr Hospital to go to Avondale.  We pass by this fellow sitting on a stone wall.  Richie lost a fair amount of weight and I didn't recognize him.  Bill Dow (a ball hawk and eagle eye from way back) recognized him immediately.  I pulled over and went over to say hello.  Turns out he'd been sitting there for an hour waiting for his son to pick him up.  Well, it was 95 degrees out.  So we gave him a ride home, listened to some great stories and dropped him off.  His son came out and said he never listened to the answering machine.  Ol Richie would still be sitting out there.  With this heat wave he'd be around my size by now  

[Kyle Harris]

THAT was Merion West!?

Wow... looks like fun. A lot of fun.

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

   I can understand the need to deal with natural features. If there is a ravine on the right, then how  you deal with the left side makes the hole. I think #17 at Philly Country is awesome. When the designer decides to put in parallel water I think it is a mistake.

    SH   lacks  options much of the time .The problem there is the overuse of optionless holes with too many stroke penalty disasters..Flynn' s use of water at Indian Creek and Cherry Hill have the crossing option (bite off as much as you want).

 For example, I like Glen Mills. But there is not enough space for the #11 and #17 holes. There are severe slopes on the sides and and a creeek in the middle. It  is a limitation of the property. Weed couldn't do much with those holes.


  There is OB on those two holes at RG? I never noticed


  I was asking for your research insight when I asked about the greens at Merion West. Saying the flattish ones were divine does not mean the uphill ones were bad.

 BTW I don't recall saying the trees at HC were all the same height. I felt they looked the same.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

It's south Jersey, you got sand, you get pine trees...

That's about it.  

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

It is a wonderful golf course.  Like I said, it really is a course that lets you feel like your back in time.  Next time I play it'll be Persimmons and balatas (I already use blades).  No Ping G2 and ProV1x for me next time.  It sure is fun to see a guy playing hickories on the course.  There's terrific topography, great balance and loads of fun.  Fun and golf; they should go together more often.  Merion West brings a smile to your face and is a great change of pace to the East.  At this stage, I'd play 8 at the East and 2 at the West.  Every 5 years the balance should change by 1.  I suppose for the folks lucky to grow up on the course, there must be sort of a reverse change in balance from West to East.

[Kyle Harris]

Been trying to get my hands on some old persimmon woods. I've got quite a few Tour Balatas though.

I love that feeling, that's for sure.

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

     I have trouble coming up with a way to describe the green at #18 SH.  I think of a staircase going from narrow at the front of the green to wide at the back.  Of course they have mounding all along the back left with low hanging evergreens just beyond the mounds. When the trees stop the OB begins.


      I just think there are very few people who will put up with this kind of course on a continuing basis. The financial future of this place will be a challenge, because the competition is growing and there are only so many masochists around.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

Bring a couple of Balatas for me on Saturday, will you?  Tom Paul won't give me any of his (and he didn't use them).  He's saving them for some stiff named Morrisett  

Kyle is taking my boys and I on a tour of the Gettysburg battlefields this Saturday.  Should be fun!  

See you at 8am at the Visitor's Center.

As for persimmon woods, check out eBay...they're dirt cheap!  Try to find Izett woods if you can.

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