Most Overrated Architects

[Willie_Dow]

Wayne

Don't put your trip to York CC as the final read on Ross.  How much of York was J.B. McGovern ?

Plan a week north this summer and play Wannamoisett, Sakonnet, Whitinsville, Orchards, Salem, Essex, Wellesley, Weston, Winchester and Worcester - big on W's.

Along with Pinehurst, I think Ross had his hands on these jobs.

Willie

[ForkaB]

Wayne

One "W" you can avoid is Weston.  But, don't miss Winchester.  It will/should blow you away.  Might even make you start questioning your all-encompassing devotion to Flynn.......

[mike_malone]

 Eckstein,

   I'd say you saw  enough courses to make a judgement.

  I am curious about your view of Indian Creek. Maybe knowing that he created "something out of nothing" affected my view, but I thought -- "bold" , particularly the way he varied the look for a relatively flat property.

  BTW I am a member of a Flynn course and think if it were on your list you would never use the word "boring" about it.

[Adam_Messix]

Eckstein--

You really think that Flynn played it safe at Manufacturers?  Certainly some of the features that Flynn used there, namely the quarries, were an unusual feature for that time period.  I can't imagine many architects building the 11th hole there either, but it works really well.  

From the drawings that I've seen, there isn't much of MacDonald left at Shinnecock.  I'm sure Wayne will elaborate.  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Ok, these are all valid points made by those above.  
If I can ask, what The Voice of Reason believes to be a legitimate question, is it a fair comparison?

From what I know about Flynn--and Wayne, please correct me if I am wrong--he had a smaller scale operation than Ross.  I know he had the architecture business, and then the Toomey/Flynn construction company.  From the number of courses he did, is it safe to guess that he visited every one of them, or spent a considerable amount of time on site?  

Ross is known in educated circles like ours   for being very prolific.  Yet, he is also known, in the same educated circles   for not visiting/supervising all his work.  I believe there is hard evidence here.  He had a much larger scale operation-satellite offices, foremen such as McGovern and Hatch, perhaps doing some design work?  

We have now established that Ross had a more prolific body of work than Flynn.  But, because of the scale of his operation, the law of averages states there are bound to be some clunkers in there.  Same with RTJ.  Some great stuff, and a fair amount of clunkers.  

Flynn had a smaller operation, from what I understand, his level of quality was more consistent from course to course.  I don't know of any you could call "clunkers".  Am I right?
I do know of a few that are/were plowed under.  

I fully believe, and this isn't to avoid getting invited to a knuckle sandwich dinner at a Philly area diner   Flynn is underrated.  I'm not kissing anyone's a**.  I really like what I have seen of his stuff.  His stuff seems to be more consistent across the board, most likely due to having personal involvement in each course.  


In conclusion, I will stand by this: Ross isn't overrated, but Flynn in the past has been underrated.  

[mike_malone]

 redanman,

   I haven't played either so I cannot make a judgement.

 But I would guess that someone who has been with Tommy Lee is more interesting than someone who has been with Tom Cruise.

[redanman]

Flynn is probably the most consistently good architect.   Maybe add Thomas and Mackenzie.

Talking consistent quality of a certain level - definitely not flashy by today's criteria, but flash can get old and you need to look past the candy or the blonde hair and big teats, if you prefer.

[Matt_Ward]

One would have to place the Palmer / Seay team among the category when looking at modern contributions.

Give Arnie A+ for the contacts he has and a number of fine sites but the overall standard of what comes forward is most often highly visual but often empty vessels devoid of much strategic impulse.

There are a few exceptions that I have played -- the Oasis in Mesquite, NV is one such course but even there you have the formulaic style that makes one wonder if these guys ever really understood what might be possible if they bothered to "think outside the box."

A pity because other architects who are trying to get a toe-hold would die for even 10% of the sites The King has had over the years.

[wsmorrison]

"Shinnecock is great, but didn’t Flynn get help from Macdonald or use Macdonald's holes? The others are pretty good, but nothing permanently burned in my memory. This is the rub."

"Didn't Flynn get help from Macdonald or use Macdonald's holes?"  NO!  Don't you think knowing those answers is relevant?  All the greens are Flynn greens.  Fifteen of the holes are completely Flynn.  The par 3 second green is on the site of Macdonald's par 5 12th (I think) but is approached from a different angle.  The routing of the 3, 7 and much of the 9th holes are the same as Macdonald but that's it.  The third is the only hole that is close to Macdonald's design but Flynn redid the bunkering and the green.  The seventh had a different tee (10 yards to the left) a different green (on the same site) and different bunkering.  The ninth hole was lengthened and the tee moved, the green was lowered into the hillside by Flynn and the bunkering on the hillside short of the green is all Flynn.  The Macdonald bunkering was minimal on the hole.  The course is Flynn.  Got it?

"The safe route while following a formula?"  You couldn't be more wrong and are describing Ross, not Flynn.  Show me where Flynn took the safe route.  He may have been the most daring and unsystematic router of all time.  By the way, did Ross take bold chances?  Flynn was just the opposite.  If you can't see this you can't see.

You walked away from Indian Creek and didn't think it was interesting?  I know you're supposed to keep your head down while playing golf but raise it once in a while  

Kittansett, Brookline, Lancaster, Manufacturers, Boca Raton and Mill Road Farm (read Dan Wexler) not interesting or terrific use of natural features?  What about his mimicking nature where it is highly manufactured?  Cascades and Indian Creek look like there's minimal man-made features but Indian Creek is all man-made and Cascades is quite a bit.  

Flynn's batting average is as good as it gets.  Ross does not.  

What about my points regarding Ross?  That's what my contribution to this thread is about, not defending Flynn.  Talk about my comments on Ross, will you?

[Jonathan Cummings]

Wayne - I'm with you!  Places like Lancaster are timeless - you get the same great impact the first or 100th time you play it.

JC

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne
I am familiar with Shinnecock Hills, Lancaster, Manufacturers, Philmont, James River, Cascades, Indian Creek, Pepper Pike, CC of Cleveland, Glen View and Cherry Hills. Over a number of years.

Shinnecock is great, but didn’t Flynn get help from Macdonald or use Macdonald's holes? The others are pretty good, but nothing permanently burned in my memory. This is the rub.

A good gac who always took the safe route while following a successful formula. Boring!

You’ll never walk away from a Flynn course saying, Wow! That was interesting! That was bold!

He did everything well, but nothing great. There is no shame in being placed in the second division with Emmet, Gordon, Strong and Stiles! Like I said he was good but overrated.

How many of you guys are members of Flynn golf clubs?

I just played Manufacturer's today for the first time and was amazed by the routing. The Quarry hole is incredible, and comes into play or is used on three other holes. On the 16th I almost put it in the quarry because I didn't realize it came that close to the green.

Flynn also uses Sandy Run very effectively and I love how he was able to route the golf course to take advantage of different angles of play with the creek. Sneaking it down the right side of the green on 2, dead in front of the 7th green, and then well in front of 17.

The par 3s were superlative. The 4th is banked into a hillside very effectively. 6 and 11 are both wonderful uphill holes with a lot of options to get into the green on both. The bunkering on all is superb.

The 13th is a long three with a large green and a well executed run up shot will nuzzle right next to the hole.

The second nine also used four drainage swales that cut across the holes in different places very effectively, like Flynn used Sandy Run, the swale comes into play at different parts. In the approach on 12, the landing area on 15, right before the green on the aforementioned 13th, and as a visual fool on 3.

Flynn was every bit the router of golf courses as Ross, and in most cases, much better.

[Kyle Harris]

Some Manny's pics... Not very bland at all, in my eye.

Par 3 4th Hole


Par 3 8th Hole "Quarry"


Par 3 12th Hole, with one of the swales cutting in front of the green (tee shot is from left of picture)


Par 4 16th Hole

[T_MacWood]

Calling Flynn or Ross overrated is idiotic...any way you cut it they were both standout architects.

[wsmorrison]

Bill Dow,

I know I need to see more and I will make a point of following your lead.

Kyle,
Thanks for the pictures.

Tom MacWood,

Ross is a great architect.  You can be great and still overrated.  In my mind, due to the reasons I mentioned previously, he is.

Flynn is a great architect, yet he is underrated.  Some of this happens to be an artifact of many not knowing what his work encompasses.  

I didn't want to get into a Flynn vs. Ross but Eckstein made some pretty idiotic comments and continues to do it with regularity.

Eckstein,

Is it possible that what you've read by Whitten is in error?  Do you believe everything you read?  Or just when it fits your narrow and poorly considered viewpoint?  I don't have it hard for Flynn.  I know the truth and can prove it.  Can you?  You are ill-informed and poorly prepared to defend your statements.  Unless your preparation is "Ha ha ha, Ron Whitten told me so."  

You wouldn't have played Mill Road Farm or Boca Raton unless you now play from the forward tees.  Both courses went under more than 50 years ago.

Again with the good, safe boring.  You don't get it, and I could care less.  

"I've played both Kittansett and Brookline. Flynn designed both of these courses?"

Why don't you ask Ron Whitten?  Flynn did rout and design Kittansett.  Now you probably think it stale and boring.  Flynn redesigned most of the original 18 holes and added 9.  Which ones are the stale and boring ones?  Anything memorable at either of these courses?

Why don't you go to the Country Club of York and look at what Flynn proposed and what Ross did.  Analyze it for yourself and see what you come up with.  They have all the info at the club and I'm sure they'd be happy to share it with you.  Or are would you rather wait for the Ron Whitten article?

So, what about Ross?  I'm sure you've read something about him too.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

Flynn's original 6th hole is a marvelous par 3.  Wait till Ron and Jim get that back to its original form!

Although Flynn was never in the UK, his 16th hole at Manufacturers is a lot like the 6th at the Addington.  Here's Ran's photo of when we were there last year:



Eckstein has already declared this hole stale and boring  

[PThomas]

Wayne -- don't think I agree that you can be both great and overrated...

[wsmorrison]

Paul,

Let me say that Ross is great, but not the greatest.  If most think he is the greatest then, in my mind, he is overrated yet still great.  Maybe that doesn't make sense, but I think it fits.  Just like an architect can be great yet still be underrated.  I'm not saying Flynn is better than Ross, I'm just saying relative to my view, I find most people overrate Ross and underrate Flynn.  Then there are those like Eckstein that really underrate Flynn  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Sorry to arrive at the party late. I say REES JONES is a huge number one. I had thoughts this morning that Tommy could arrange for the next California landslide to be Torrey South, but have it just drop 25 feet and maybe one of a hundred quality people could come in a fix his poor work.

[Nate Mady]

Rees Jones, the master of disaster.. Rees's Pieces, LMAO!!

Come on, Ross overrated?? Sure he has a few stinkers, but name an architect with over 300 courses to his credit with no stinkers!! I've played a couple Alister stinkers..  

[Dan Herrmann]

Tiger's right.  It's Rees, followed by the design firm of Ault, Clark, and Associates.

I have no idea why Flynn would be considered overrated.  If anything, he's terribly underrated.

[Kyle Harris]

Ault and Clark are horribly overrated, it's almost embarrasing. There firm has produced one course of note that I've ever played: Mountain Valley in Mahanoy City, PA.

[Kyle Harris]

These lovely pictures of Manny's makes one just cry out
(or just plain cry   ) for a chainsaw.
(The #1 course of Flynn's that is very easy to improve)

The one and only Marston Cup I will ever get to play is there this year,
 I am looking forward to it, calendar marked to get my entry

in early.

Thanks for the compliment, Bill, send me a private message if you'd like the rest. Have them for pretty much every hole.