Shots that go together well.....

[Jeff_Brauer]

Here is another concept topic.....

What type of shots go together well on a par 4 or 5 to make a memorable hole for you?

Certainly, there have been some theories, like Ross and Dye setting up alternating draw and fade shots.

Many have created optional heroics, (skirting a hazard) to set up an easier second.

Still others have written and designed that a hard tee shot (say, Oakland Hills pinched fairways) should be followed with an easy approach.  Or, if a hard tee shot and hard approach, the putting should be easy, etc.

What other combinations of wind, visible/blind, uphill/downhill, high spin, big bomb tee shots, using contours to shape shots, etc. seem to go together in your mind, if you were a design consultant?

What combos are bad, other than a 5 iron layup to the corner, followed by a 3 wood approach to a green?

[A.G._Crockett]

Jeff,
I really like the question, which I had never thought about in exactly this way.  You named the least favorite already; longer club on the approach than off the tee.

Another "bad" combo (though a variation of the above) is a mandatory layup with a shorter club than the shot you are then left with into a par 5.
Uphill, uphill combo, with the second shot blind.

Favorites:
Bomb off the tee, extreme touch shot into the green.
Uphill tee shot to a crest, with a downhill approach that requires factoring in the change in elevation.
A well-shaped tee shot with a fairway wood on a short par four, followed by a mid-iron in.
Uphill approaches that allow the ball to feed off some sort mounding (creates excitement as you wonder just where your shot ended up.  "That could be close!")

[Jeff_Brauer]

You guys must not be into conceptual thinking today.  Well, I would have trouble posting conceptual thoughts on how to put together a leveraged buyout, so I understand.....

Hmmm, lets see, I normally follow a ground ball with a ground ball......

[Jason Topp]

My favorite par fives are reachable in two and require you to take some risk off the tee to get a chance at the second shot.  Ideally, the risk is not distance related because longer hitters already have an advantage on such holes.  An example would be a 475 yard par five that slightly doglegs left around trees at around 350 such that one cannot reach the green if his tee shot ends up in the left side of the fairway.   I would envision a stream or something serving the same function running down the right side of the fairway and parallell to it for the tee shot.

The most enjoyable shot in golf is going for the green on a par five or four.  I like to see holes that allow for that possibility even if one is not a tour player.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jason,

I like the type of par 5 you describe.  I hear less complaints about a tree getting in the way of a bonus shot than if it were a par 5, and have designed holes like that.  The creek could be a cape type carry, though, rather than perfectly parallel.

[Jason Topp]

Jeff:

Some on this site would have you flogged for suggesting the tee shot would have anything to do with a cape.  

In general, my only problem with a cape type hazard is that it doubly rewards length.  A 20 yard carry advantage turns into a forty yard advantage because the longer hitter can bite more of the hazard off.  I've found on Florida courses that a friend of mine that hits it 30 yards farther than me can sometimes have a 100 yard advantage because of the angle at which he can attack.  I think that is fine for a couple holes, but it gets old round after round, day after day.  

That advantage would be reduced in this type of a hole, however because the cape type tee shot would be on the outside of the dogleg rather than the inside.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jason,

If I understood your description, this would be sort of a cape on the outside of the dogleg.  Thus, a longer tee shot may not get them closer to the par 5 green, just past the trees where they have a clear shot. In that case, the cape may not doubly reward golfers as it would on a par 4, especially if we presume the shorter hitter can't get there anyway.

[Dan Kelly]

Another "bad" combo (though a variation of the above) is a mandatory layup with a shorter club than the shot you are then left with into a par 5.

Uphill, uphill combo, with the second shot blind.

Emphatically agree with the first. I pretty much HATE any mid-to-short-iron layups, even if the third is a wedge.

Disagree with the second -- unless you mean REALLY blind, so you can't even see the flag; or unless you mean a second to a green that won't hold the shot hit with the required club.
I like uphill, semi-blind approaches (like Mr. Brauer's tribute to the Dell green -- have I got that right, Jeff? -- at Giants Ridge Quarry).

Generally: I like demanding/demanding, or demanding/demanding/demanding -- which is not to say penally demanding/penally demanding or penally demanding/penally demanding/penally demanding.

I like to have to Do the Right Thing with this shot in order to have a good chance of Doing the Right Thing with the next shot, and so on.

In other words, generally: I don't care much for Bomb Away With Impunity drives, and I don't like Who Cares Where You Put It layups.

Beyond that, shots that go together well and memorably are any combinations that I haven't played a thousand times before.

But I particularly like (in fact, LOVE) holes that allow me to Do the Wrong Thing with one shot and still leave the POSSIBILITY (if not a "good chance") to Do the Very Right Thing with my next. If I hit it into the trees, I love the CHANCE to hit it around or under the trees and run it up to the green. If I hit it into the rough, I love the CHANCE to find that little opening between the bunkers and run it up onto the green.

Give me the CHANCE for a "heroic" recovery, and I'll be a happy boy -- even after I mess up my recovery shot.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

If I understood your description, this would be sort of a cape on the outside of the dogleg.  Thus, a longer tee shot may not get them closer to the par 5 green, just past the trees where they have a clear shot. In that case, the cape may not doubly reward golfers as it would on a par 4, especially if we presume the shorter hitter can't get there anyway.

Jeff - you got it.  I was actually agreeing it was a good suggestion.  Is there a Dell tribute at the Quarry?  I played both last year but played the Quarry first.  Having said that, I can't remember a hole like the Dell.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jason,

The 14th green is a sanitized Dell Green, with about half of the green visible, rather than just a sliver (for presumed American tastes) and on a par 5, rather than a par 3, to introduce the strategy of possibly seeing the blind part of the green by playing way out left on the second, near the fw bunkers.

I like the occaisional Scottish/Irish copy for the "Huh" factor.  Right now, I am building a road hole copy in Kansas, more like the original, in that its about 520 yards - a par 5 as originally intended - and with the railroad still active, not abandoned, and very much affecting play as in the original.  I am trying not to sanitize it too much......

[Kirk Gill]

To echo earlier sentiments, what I want most out a par 5 is to have some level of first shot that I need to reach to make going for the green in two a possibility. In other words, I don't want the first shot to just lay there, asking me for a huge drive of indeterminate position. I want to have an achievable but difficult necessity on the first shot that rewards me if I make it, and may even punish me a bit if I don't. Having to lay up if I barely miss it, or suffering a greater penalty if I REALLY miss it. This is true especially on a course that I would play often. I might want that first shot to be a bit easier on a resort course that I may only play one time.

If I've made a good first, then the second has to be a true challenge. The shot has to be tempting, but with danger lurking. The target should be small and well-protected. Again, I would want the protection to be more subtle on a club course that I could play often, allowing me to learn and account for the subtleties over time. A false front on the green, an unseeable swale in front, construction that makes the distance hard to calculate. If water is involved I'd want it to capture poorer shots, rather than near misses. At a resort, I might want big splashy bunkers providing both a target and at least the illusion of penalty, or a water hazard of heroic proportions.

But that's just me.

[Dan Kelly]

... and with the railroad still active, not abandoned, and very much affecting play as in the original.

The liability insurance!

[Doug Siebert]

This is in central Kansas -- there aren't any passengers on the trains there, and no liability worries if an errant tee shot hits a boxcar full of winter wheat

[Mark_F]

I like holes that are 'awkward', because they are different, and really get you thinking.

The 11th at West Sussex is a longish par four that doglegs left to right, fairway cambers left to right, and the best way into the green is from the left hand side.  

The same with fairways that camber the opposite side of the dogleg - I think Ran's profile of Garden City mentions this happens on a few holes?  

Is this something architects like/can build into courses these days, or is it too subtle?  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jeff, When your walking a property for the very first time you see it, its your job and your actually looking for features and the like, do you stick to a personal formula or do you make note of the feature and look to compile all of them together to make the best routing?

Also, What do you think of the routing of the Valley Club of Montecito?

If you had the same property as MacKenzie, what steps, personal formulas, features would you have used to complete a sum of the parts?

(These are all questions with no tricks or gimmicks involved.)

[Sean_A]

Besides some of the types already mentioned, I like par 4s where one has to decide the length of tee shot.  Hit to a top of a hill or do I take a chance and try to make it to the bottom of the valley over the hill?  If I don't pull it off, I now have a downslope lie to a slightly uphill green.  Better hope the pin isn't up front because the slope leading to the green is too steep to try and kick the ball on.  Only a very good strike will have enough spin to stop the ball rolling to the back of the green, naturally leaving a long downhill putt.  Ideally, the front of the green would meld into the steep slope in front, leaving the possibility of putting to the bottom of the valley, a good 30 yards off the green.  All these troubles because I didn't want to hit 3 wood off the tee.  Excellent!

Ciao

Sean

[Mark Brown]

Jeff
Shot combos I like:

1. 4 par: slightly uphill tee shot, dogleg, 2nd shot is about 20ft downhill with a 6 or 7 iron.

2. Par 5s that get more difficult with each shot

3. Par 4: dogleg -tee shot with diagonal risk-reward bunkers that produce extremely different 2nd shots based on how you play it. The green should be somewhat collecting due to length of hole

4. Short four that offers varying looks at the green depending on the risk taken off the tee. Safe drive shoudl make most of green hidden

I love risk-reward shots where the risk is stern, but not lost and has a chance of recovery with a great shot

[Jeff_Brauer]

Just checking my own thread. Thanks for the answers.  I think Kirik's answer is close to what I was thinking, as in do you want a hard shot to lead to going to a par 5 in two, or one where you can just bust it, because, well, you have to bust it.....I like his answer.

Mark,

Wouldn't an uphill tee shot to a crest and a 20 downhill shot cause some blindness to all who don't get up the hill?

Tommy,

I love the Valley Club and its routing, even if it is a bit tight by todays standards.

I compile a list of features to use, and go back to the office (or hotel room to see where they fit)

I do have a hip pocket check list of holes I would like to include and most sites have features that suggest several of those, and other areas where the land lays silent, and I am more free to create.

I don't know if that answers your question....

[texsport]

(1)I like holes with options!

(2) On any 2 shot combination, make the shot before the approach to the green mean something.(The tee shot on a par 4 and the 2nd on par 5s)

(3) I also prefer combinations of the same type shot, that is, 2 long shots where accuracy isn't as important, or, 2 shots with fairway woods/long irons in a row, or, 2 short shots where accuracy is everything, on both shots.