And the gap widens...

[Stuart Donald]

Playing last week with three other golfers of around 17 handicap who could hit the ball, at best, average off the tee I was staggered at the difference in our games. Recently lucky enough to be given a new complete set of clubs, including a Uranium Alloy mid mounted 4WD rocket launcher (MacGregor), I was playing golf in a league of my own. I am a single figure handicapper (just) that mixes birdies with doubles and do not consider I am long. Half way through the round, I realised I was looking beyond all the bunkers and had hit three clubs from my bag  - driver, lob wedge and five iron (excluding par threes which were 7 iron). My playing partners were playing the course as it should have been, with a variety of shots and club selections. In a discussion following , someone asked me if I believed technology has changed the game. I answered toungue in cheek but with a little frustration that the future of golf may be that we are assigned a Tee based on an assessment of our age and swing speed. To design a course that accounts for a 100+ yard variation in driving distance on an average drive is becoming a little ridiculous. I also believe this is a major deterent for people entering the game - especially later in life.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Stuart,

I think you raise an interesting point and a dilema for golf course architects.

The differential in driving distance makes it almost impossible to establish a "LZ" for drives.

In looking at an aerial of NGLA the only way to offset the spread in driving distance may be to lace the field of play with bunkers or hazards from tee to green.

[Paul Richards]

Stuart


You raise some very interesting points.  When I read the Golfweek articles talking about the USGA 'finally' addressing the golf ball, it struck me that the only excuse anyone uses that 'technology hasn't ruled the game' is that driving distance on tour hasn't changed much over the past couple years after the quantum leaps that occurred in the previous era.


However, as you point out, it isn't only effecting the game on the professional tour but for the everyday golfer as well.


I truly hope the USGA is able to 'turn back' the ball, or make a competition ball be the standard.

 

[RT]

Pat,

Now that gets my post of the year so far.

RT

[Brad Klein]

The only way to deal with distance by defense is to put bunkers in the middle of the far end of the landing area and make golfers work around them.

[A.G._Crockett]

Stuart,
I'm not sure that I understand which of two possible complaints you are making.  Are you complaining that you were hitting it too far in an absolute sense, or are you complaining that you are hitting it too much farther than the high handicappers that you were playing with?  Those are really different from each other, and the solutions are RADICALLY different.

A 17 handicapper should normally shoot something in the neighborhood of 90, right?  Meanwhile, an 8 handicapper should be in the neighborhood of 10 shots or so better, right?

So what would account for the difference between the 8 and the 17?  Among other things (and there are many, of course) the 8 can hit the ball farther, perhaps much farther.  There is not an inherent technological problem there, IMHO.  The distance difference between an 8 and a 17 is part of golf, like the distance difference between a scratch player and an 8.  If and when there are I&B regulations put into place that limit distance, the difference between 8's and 17's (or scratches and 8's) had better not disappear, or it may well kill the game.   There would be nothing to aspire to, no way to improve, and so forth.  So, I'm guessing that your complaint isn't that you hit the ball too much farther than a 17 handicap.

Now, if you were hitting it too far from an absolute sense, you are the first 8 that I've ever encountered that has that problem.  In general, 8's can't compress golf balls enough on a consistent basis to hit them more than about 260 yds. or so consistently.  That's one of the really big reasons we ARE 8's!

I'll hazard a guess and say that the 4 of you were playing the same set of tees, and that it was one of the forward sets, so that your buddies could enjoy their round.  If that was the case, while that might have been somewhat noble and a good decision on your part, it would not be surprising that you found this to be less of a challenge and somewhat limiting.  If you had moved back, your less-skilled partners would have faced the same problems from the other perspective, no?  They would have hit only fairway woods and long irons, as opposed to you hitting only wedges, etc.  

If you put bunkers in places where NOBODY can hit over them from ANY tee, then the bunkers may not even be in play for the vast majority of players from any tee.  All that you will have accomplished is higher maintenance costs for "extraneous" features, often called "eye-candy" here and lamented accordingly.  I would submit that a bunker that can't be flown by ANYBODY ever is more likely to be in the wrong place than bunkers that some players can hit over sometimes.

[Jason Topp]

There is no doubt that the gap has widened.  In the last 25 years, Tour driving distance has increased 35 yards (per my post on the recent thread) and the average driving distance for an average player (per Golf Digest) has increased only slightly.  Thus the gap has gone from about 55 yards in 1980 to about 90 yards today.  The gap is even larger if one compared the difference between tour players and poor players. (These numbers are based on data I have previously posted but will not cite again here)

This difference makes it more difficult to design a course to accomodate all levels of player.

[A.G._Crockett]

There is no doubt that the gap has widened.  In the last 25 years, Tour driving distance has increased 35 yards (per my post on the recent thread) and the average driving distance for an average player (per Golf Digest) has increased only slightly.  Thus the gap has gone from about 55 yards in 1980 to about 90 yards today.  The gap is even larger if one compared the difference between tour players and poor players. (These numbers are based on data I have previously posted but will not cite again here)

This difference makes it more difficult to design a course to accomodate all levels of player.

All true, but not relevant to 8's vs 17's.

[Jason Topp]

All true, but not relevant to 8's vs 17's.

You may be right that 8's cannot generally hit it more than 260, but I think that is the wrong question.  The appropriate question is - has the range of driving distances that a player hits it on a normal course increased to the point that it presents increased design challenges?

I believe the answer to that question is yes.  There are many amateurs with swing speeds that approach tour swing speeds.  There are a zillion decent, but not great amateurs that can hit the ball a long ways.  The tour numbers represent an extreme, but if one reduces the long hitting distance numbers by 10% there is still a huge and increasing gap in distances, and that gap has increased dramatically over the last 25 years.

[Stuart Donald]

AG

Neither! My proposition is guided toward the increasing gap in distance between the upper and lower handicaps.

For reference, I hit two greens of over 310 yards in length of which, with my old driver I have never been closer than about 30 yards - this is not my point. My old clubs were 13 years in the bag (11 for Driver) so I have noticed the difference in distance dramatically - still not my point.

I hit a solid drive with this new machine about 270/280 on this particular day. The 3 guys I played with were about 50 yards back at least (with the same technology). 25 years ago if I hit it 225/235, were these boys back at 180? I am not so sure... Has the ability gap widened between a young fit nimble player who can generate some good clubhead speed and the solid down the middle guy who is a genius around the green? Maybe not on a well designed golf course, but it certainly felt like these guys were punished more by their lack of distance than when I remember playing from that number.

The technology works in percentages, not yards, so if everyone is hitting it 10% further, then the gap is widening...
In design this results in the spreading out of hazards or features over a greater distance.

Was I playing off the wrong tees? Everyones handicap is based on ability and is supposedly corrected through adjustment for each tee box. If we went back to the black, would their handicaps have become too low? then the gap is widening...

[Bob_Huntley]

Quite frankly I am completely in the dark about some of the claims of 300 yard drives from putative eight handicaps. I know Nicklaus states that with the new equipment and ball he is as long now as he was thirty years ago.

As a fifty year old I could hit the 16th at CPC  and the 4th at MPCC Dunes, about 238 yards, with a three of four wood. As a septagenerian I find it difficult to get close with a driver. Titanium drivers exploding Pro V1's, you name it, I seem to be the exception to the rule.  

[THuckaby2]

Bob - I don't think you're alone in being the exception.  As a teenager I hit #16 at CPC with a lovely high persimmon four wood... As a much heaver and stronger quadraginterian, I come up short sometimes with a driver (as you painfully saw).

TH

ps - yes, I did post that just so I could try and find the Latin root word for forty-year-old... God help me I do enjoy words like that.    But the statements are painfully true for me, also.

[Sean_A]

Bob

I bought a new (about 1.5 year old model) Callaway driver in December.  I was hitting the ball as far in the winter with this new thing as a summer drive with the old driver.  Downwind with a good strike, I can certainly hit this club over 300 yards!  In fact, I am discovering what a poor wedge player I am!

I would say in normal (not more than 10 mile an hour wind and not getting summer roll) conditions I am hitting the ball ~20 yards further than previously.  I have jumped from about 230 to 250 yards on an average drive.  A few more greens at my club have come into the hitting zone.  A part of me loves it, but another part knows that this is merely a legalized way of cheating.  I am contemplating buying new irons, but this would only fuel the fire.

I will say one thing Bob.  There are a load of people out there saying they hit the driver 275.  When I see them hit it, I know they are estimating well over the top.  These are the same guys that walk 30 yards past their ball when searching.  When the ball is pointedin the rear, they claim it hit a tree!

Ciao

Sean  

[RJ_Daley]

The technology works in percentages, not yards, so if everyone is hitting it 10% further, then the gap is widening...
In design this results in the spreading out of hazards or features over a greater distance.

I think that the above may be the essence of the matter, as to the design dilemma.

As for Mr. Donald's immediate concern of playing a course with his friends who have higher handicaps and are less able to generate length in their slower swing speeds and techniques, I think you can still enjoy a game that keeps you walking together, and hitting more similar shots from similar fairway positions.  Just discard the driver from you bag that day, and play with 12.99 per 15 set of balls.  That should put you right about in their wheel house.

[Craig Sweet]

Whoa! The gap between the average pro drive and the average Joe drive is 90 yards?

Hmmm...I would think the average pro(the average for the tour) is hitting it 280??? So the average Joe is hitting it 190 ?

That seems a bit low, for the average Joe.

[TEPaul]

I wonder if I'd get bored with hitting lob wedges into numerous greens and holes that are medium and long par 4s. At any rate it's a problem I think I might like to have or at least try for a while.  

I'm a pretty good lob wedge player too---I actually use it on a lot of the long par 4s---but it's my third shot.  

[TEPaul]

Craig:

In the USGA course rating process criteria "the average Joe" if he's considered to be what the rating criteria considers the "Bogey" golfer (17.5-22.4) hits his tee shot 200 yards.

[Craig Sweet]

TEPaul...and the scratch golfer hits it 250.

With the average Joe, the bogey golfer, hitting it 200 yards, the equipment advances have not made his home course absolete.

The scratch golfer can move to the tips and should be able to compensate for any equipment advances, correct?

[A.G._Crockett]

Quite frankly I am completely in the dark about some of the claims of 300 yard drives from putative eight handicaps. I know Nicklaus states that with the new equipment and ball he is as long now as he was thirty years ago.

As a fifty year old I could hit the 16th at CPC  and the 4th at MPCC Dunes, about 238 yards, with a three of four wood. As a septagenerian I find it difficult to get close with a driver. Titanium drivers exploding Pro V1's, you name it, I seem to be the exception to the rule.  

Bob,
The reason you haven't seen it is because it isn't happening.  Driving distances are like fish stories.

Go to a flat par four on a relatively windless day, with relatively "normal" firmness in the fairway and wait 300 yds. out from the tee to be struck by a golf ball flying a fairway bunker off the clubface of an 8 handicapper.  You'll be there all day.

For the average golfer between a 5 and a 15, a drive that they just kill will go about 265 yds. under the above conditions.  

On Monday, I watched the best HS golfers in Georgia at the state AAAAA championship tournament.  (By the way, my team, Roswell HS, finished third at 597   on what will probably be my last day as a HS coach after 31 years)  I watched approx. 100 players, many of whom will be playing college golf next year or the year after, come in on #9 and #18, which are parallel with #10 in between. It was a dry, windless day in the mid-80's.  I saw maybe 10 balls all day exceed 300 yds. off the tee.  The better players averaged about 275.

When players of my level (I'm a 53 yr. old 7 handicap) tell me about 300 yd. drives they have struck or seen struck, I KNOW one of several things has happened.

1. Unusual conditions in terms of wind, drought, etc.
2. Lots of downhill assistance.
3. A scorecard that has "fudged" distances.
4. Tees that were well up from the printed distance.
5. Piss-poor math skills.
6. Literary license.
7. A combination of 1-6.

As to the gap, Craig Sweet is dead on.  The gap isn't growing as much as is purported, though clearly a constant % of a growing number results in a growing gap.  I guesstimate that the gap between the pros and the "average" 8 handicap off the tee is about 30 yds., and the irons probably run about 15-20 yds.  If you take a 420 yd. par four, the pro hits it 285 off the tee, I hit it 255 off the tee.  I have 165 left, and hit a 5 iron (maybe a six) while the pro hits a 7, maybe an 8.  Check out Shotlink if you think they are hitting 9 irons 165!  It ain't happening...