Is Pete Dye trying to force a new golf rule?

[TEPaul]

I thought Pete Dye's CC of Louisiana produced some truly interesting golf on tour this week. The architecture of the greens and some odd looking bunkering scattered randomly in fairway areas sure did provided some unexpected golf and strategies and results---and for that, at least, Dye and his architecture on that new course should be congratulated.

But on the other hand, that course sure is a lot of that unique "Dye" ultra artificial bunkering application. Those hundreds of yards long bunkers that flank one side or the other of tee shots is pretty odd. If Pete doesn't have the opportunity to flank water all the way along the side of a hole he seems to do it with a hundreds of yards long flat bunker.

Does any club really want to rake and maintain all that sand? And surely the consequence of going in it is practically zero as DiMarco proved about all day long yesterday.

The fact is Pete Dye may be the original creator and king of the "waste area" which does not have a place or a definition in the actual Rules of Golf. "Waste area" and the way they're handled in golf today is strictly through the rules process of a "local rule".

If you ask me, Pete Dye must be trying to get the USGA/R&A to actually define the "waste area" in the Rules of Golf" he does so much of it and has for so long.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom,
I was thinking the same exact thing.  

I also kept thinking, as DiMarco kept hitting his tee shots into these 'waste areas', that this wasn't authentic golf.  

I don't think that Vijay liked the course - when asked on Friday, he replied, "it's OK" with a smirk.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Dan, Could you elaborate on what you mean, by saying it was not authentic golf? Isn't recovery at the heart and soul of competition? Before the modern fairway it was all waste area and all recovery. Can't get more Awetentick den dat.

[Brent Hutto]

If you miss the third green at Spyglass Hill by about 10 yards to the left, you'll either be in ice plant or on a footprint-covered dune in soft sand. That's not a bunker, you can ground your club, it's not called a "waste area" either. I guess it's just "through the green".

It's probably more penal than a raked bunker with firmer sand and no footprints. When I duffed my shot out of a footprint from there I remember thinking that I'd much rather be in a greenside bunker somewhere. I certainly didn't think "Man, this ain't real golf".

[A.G._Crockett]

One option available to the player is to not hit their ball into the waste area in the first place, much as with bunkers and water hazards.

[A_Clay_Man]

AG- One of the things that we noticed at Teeth if the Dog was that many of the low profile hazards didn't preclude recovery. Diminishing their penal aspect greatly. The same appeared true this weekend.

[Dan Herrmann]

Adam, by 'authentic', I meant a course where bunkers were hazards as opposed to 'waste areas'.  In my opinion, 'waste areas' have no place in golf.

Either they're hazards or they aren't.  If they aren't, I think that they should be covered with vegetation.

Just an opinion, and not a terribly stong one at that  

[Brent Hutto]

The public course I learned to play golf on had lots of areas through the green that weren't covered in vegetation--especially near the end of summer if there hadn't been a lot of rain.

[Rick Shefchik]

We are back at the oft-discussed queston: for whom are golf courses designed, anyway? For the annual caravan of professionals, every one of whom would hit 4 out of 5 greens from one of those long, smoothly-manicured waste/area bunkers on Dye's course? Or for the poor schlubs who have to play the course the other 50 weeks of the year, most of whom are lucky to even get out of one of those things, much less put their shot anywhere near the green?

I'd much rather see a couple of pot bunkers take the place of one of those airstrip sand repositories. Place them where the pros drive the ball, make it a penalty to get out, and leave the rest of the golfing public alone. They're miserable enough as it is.

[Brent Hutto]

I'm the very definition of a bogey golfer yet I'd much rather be in a "waste area" of sand a la the Ocean Course (Dye) or True Blue (Strantz) than in four or five inches of rough. If there is a need for a non-fairway lie along the side of the hole I prefer sand to deep rough, water or OB stakes.

[Rick Shefchik]

Brent:

Despite your status as a bogey golfer, you must have a decent sand game. My objection to the huge sand areas is partly about playability (most of the hacks I see are really terrible out of sand) but also about naturalness. If the sand wasn't there in the first place, I favor using it sparingly. I'd say the same about water, but a lot of courses need to create ponds to handle drainage. Not so with sand. It's just expensive, both to bring in and maintain. Rough is cheaper.

[A_Clay_Man]

Rick- One of the interesting aspects that was pointed out to me at TPC Sawgrass, was the line of those long bunkers and how it creates a more distinct edge. Not just visually but playability-wise also. They have a widows peak character to them, that funnels drainage away from the bunker (and water in many case) which also translates to friendly bounces when successfully challenged.

AG, I suppose I am pretty firm in my belief that vegitation covered surrounds, usually makes for a great match-play course, or, five hour rounds, I can never remember.

[Ryan DeMay]

Here is an example of Dye using a long (approximately 90 yards) bunker to flank one side of the fairway with water one yard from the bunker.  This is the 14th at Avalon Lakes (Dye/Liddy) in Howland, Ohio.

Low Angle Aerial


Fairway to Tee

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

While it's not "natural," is does make for a classic risk/reward tee shot...  Cut off a lot, you have a lot of carry but an easy shot into the green.  Play it safe and you have a difficult second shot...

[JohnV]

If these areas are maintained, they are bunkers and should be treated as such.  The definition of a bunker is: A bunker is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

If they are not maintained (ala the sand dunes at Pacific Dunes or Kiawah), I can see them being through the green.

There is no need a defintion of a waste area.  They are either a bunker or they are through the green and the rules cover it.  They only thing that might need to be done is to define which one they are in the local rules.

I would prefer to see areas like this be unmaintained as it would make them a little more hazardous.  But on the ultra-maintained PGA Tour that won't happen anytime soon.

[ian]

Just curious how you would compare these bunkers strategically to the bunkers that Pete has done.

Mike Stranz did a series of strip bunkers at the Shore course, they just happen to blend into the surroundings more effectively, but the idea remains similar enough.

I like the contrast created by the colour and mass of the "waste areas", so I have no issue with what he is doing. I I don't have a great sand game, but I find them fairly comfortable to play out of. I don't think penalty was what Pete had in mind, I think it's one of his methods of framing.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I thought Pete Dye's CC of Louisiana produced some truly interesting golf on tour this week.

I didnt get to see much of this weekends coverage, just watched the end (I was taping the Nationwide golf this weekend as they were playing here in Greenville).

But what is the actual name of the course where they played?  Is it the TPC of Louisiana?   Because I know CC of Louisiana is up in Baton Rouge, and is a Nicklaus I believe from probably 15 years ago.

Again I didnt get to see enough to get any kind of feel for the course.

[Doug Siebert]

What's the rule if you hit into one of those bunkers on the islands in the water hazard?  May it be played under the rules for a ball in a water hazard, or do you have to take stroke and distance under unplayable?  Or swim out and blast it?

I know this is an academic question for some, but that's exactly the sort of place I'd find if I played there because I'd be standing on the tee wondering this just before I hit and my brain would think "oh, he wants to go over there" and make it happen!

[Ed_Baker]

This is exactly where the dreaded straight ball would rear its ugly head producing a snappy 9 on the card.

[PThomas]

are those sand traps on those islands? can you even get to those islands to hit a shot?  

[Rob_Waldron]

It seems as if the term "waste area" has evolved as a means of differentiating unmaintained sandy areas from maintained bunkers. At World Woods Pine Barrens all sandy areas are defined as "waste areas". The use of the term provides clarification.

Another "Rules Issue" can be clarified by the use of waste area. If a player attempts to extract a ball from the confines of an extremely large bunker (like those shown in previous posts) and the ball does not leave the bunker he may not rake the area until the ball is extracted even if he has advanced the ball a significant distance. I am sure this rule is often violated.