Are there 100 great golf courses?

[danielfaleman]

Get with it dudes, I've PLAYED at least thirty of the great courses; some:

US:
Pine Valley
Augusta
Merion East
Oakmont
Pebble Beach
Bandon Dunes
Seminole
NGLA
Shinnecock
Bethpage Black
Pinehurst #2

Canada:
Banff
Breton Highlands

UK:
Old Course
Turnberry
Muirfield
Royal Dornoch (my favorite)
Royal Troon
Cairn
Wentworth
Sunningdale
Royal St. Georges
Royal County Down
Royal Portrush

Ireland:
Ballybunion
Ballyliffin
Lahinch
Portmarnock
Enniscrone

Europe:
Les Bordes

Caribe:
Casa de Campo

[rgkeller]

Old Tom Morris
Harry Vardon
Bobby Jones
Walter Hagen
Byron Nelson
Ben Hogan
Jack Nicklaus
Tiger Woods

The Old Course
Royal Dornoch
Ballybunion
Royal Melbourne
Oakmont
Pine Valley
Shinnecock Hills
Sand Hills

The first list is the golfers.

[SPDB]

Mike - Have you played all of those courses that on your "fly to" list?

[JESII]

A Great Course to me is one I would walk without clubs if given the opportunity.

[JESII]

If there aren't 5 "Great Courses" within driving distance of your house, my condolences.

[JakaB]

If you name architects and then list a number next to their name you soon very easily find 500 to 1000 great courses.

For Starters...

Ross 200
Tillie   50
Fazio  25
C$C    10
Kavanaugh 3
Doak  2
Kidd 1
Robinson 1
Damian 1
Knott 2
Flynn 8
MacKenzie 6
Kern 2
Stiles 14
RTJ 4
and so on and so on...it really adds up..Golfweek didn't get 1500 courses on their comp and circumstances list for nothing..

[Scott_Burroughs]

If there aren't 5 "Great Courses" within driving distance of your house, my condolences.

Everything within road-connected distance is "within driving distance" if you have the time.  


Define "within driving distance".  I've driven rather long distances to play very good golf, so it's an individual thing.

Within 2 hours of me?  Not even close to 5.  4 hours?  Doubtful.  6 hours?  Might add one or two, depending on "great" defintion.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike - Have you played all of those courses that on your "fly to" list?

Yes. It was a fun experience here at Golf Club Atlas, and now that I have achieved that goal I will be climbing Mt Everest with my two kids on my back this summer and then starting a Reality TV series about the pedantic behaviors of golf course aficionados starring Thomas Naccarato as himself and Andy Williams as Thomas Paul.

[JESII]

Scott

Driving distance would be to and from in a single day (without your wife knowing you played golf ). Seriously, a course you could drive to in the morning, play, and drive home in the evening. Maybe 5 hours or so.

The point of my comment however, was that "great" is very subjective because golf means something different to everyone and therefore carries more weight to some when evaluating what you'd do for a round.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I really like Mike Sweeney's definition of what great means to him, and that he is prepared to back that up with a list...very well done..and thanks for the Western Gailes diddy.
Once that his criteria is laid down, then the number of and specificity of courses will change from person to person, but the criteria on which he likens greatness is very appropriate.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike,

Interesting list.  

Some notables not there (other than WF):

Seminole
Chicago GC
Maidstone
#2
The Golf Club
Highland Links
The Country Club
Bandon Trails (OK, I cheated by 6 weeks)
Sutton Bay
Teeth of the Dog
Swinley Forest
Walton Heath
Sunningdale
Lahinch

Swinley Forest
Walton Heath
Sunningdale

Scott,

My guess is that at least one of these Heathland courses should make the list, I just do not know enough about them to say "Plane Worthy". Of the others on your list many seem like Top 100 Places to Golf.

I have only played Maidstone, and it would easily be on my Top 25 Places To Golf, however as this post was started by the studious Mr MacWood, I was focused on the golf courses.

PS. I passed on #2 for Tobacco Road, partly based on your recommendation and I just did not see #2 being 5 or 6 times better than TR, when looking at pricing.

[Phil_the_Author]

John Kavanagh,

You wrote, "If you name architects and then list a number next to their name you soon very easily find 500 to 1000 great courses... Tillie  50"

There is no bigger fan of Tilly than I, and so Iculled through all of his original designs, including those that are now extinct, and came up with 62 courses that a large number of players would say are at least very good.

Are there really 50 "great courses among them and, if so, what is your definition og "great" that you use to define them that way.

If not, how can you then even begin to say that Ross did 200 great courses?



Alpine CC, Alpine, NJ
Aronimink GC, Drexel Hill, PA (Extinct)
Atlantic Beach GC, Atlantic Beach, FL (Extinct)
Baltimore CC, Five Farms East, Baltimore, MD
Baltusrol GC, Lower and Upper Courses, Springfield, NJ
Bethpage State Park - Black, Red and Blue Courses
Farmingdale, NY
Binghamton CC, Endwell, NY
Bluff Point G&CC, Plattsburg, NY
Brackenridge Park GC San Antonio, TX
Brook Hollow GC, Dallas, TX
Cedar Crest GC, Dallas, TX
Essex County CC, West Orange, NJ
Fenway GC, (FKA Fenimore CC) Scarsdale, NY
Forest Hill FC, Bloomfield, NJ
Fresh Meadow CC, Flushing, NY
Golden Valley CC, Golden Valley, MN
Illinois GC, Glen Cove, IL (Extinct)
Indian Hills CC, Mission Hills, KS
Island Hills GC, Sayville, NY
Kansas City CC, Shawnee Mission, KS
Kingsport CC, Kingsport TN
Knollwood CC, Elmsford, NY
Lafayette CC, Jamesville, NY
Lakewood CC, (27 holes) Westlake, Ohio
Mount Pleasant CC, Brown’s Mill, NJ
Mountain Ridge CC (9 holes), West Orange, NJ
Myosotis CC, Eatontown, NJ (Extinct)
New Castle CC, New Castle, PA
Newport CC, Newport, RO
North Shore CC, Glen Head, NY
Norwood CC, Long Branch, NJ
Oak Hills CC, (FKA Alamo Country Club), San Antonio, TX
Oaks CC, (FKA Oakhurst CC) Tulsa, OK
Old Oaks CC, Purchase, NY
Philadelphia Cricket Club, Philadelphia, PA
Pleasantville CC, Pleasantville, NY
Poxono CC, Shawnee-On-Delaware, PA
Quaker Ridge GC, Scarsdale, NY
Ridgewood CC, (27 holes) Paramus, NJ
Rochester G&CC, Rochester, MN
Rockaway HC, Cedarhurst, NY
San Francisco GC, San Francisco, CA
Sands Point GC, Sands Point, NY
Saxon Woods, Scarsdale, NY
Scarsdale GC, Hartsdale, NY
Shackamaxon CC, Westfield, NJ
Shawnee CC, Shawnee-On-Delaware, PA
Somerset Hills CC, Bernardsville, NJ
Southward Ho CC, Bayshore, NY
St. Albans CC, St. Albans, NY
Suburban GC, Union, NJ
Sunnehanna CC, Johnstown, PA
Suneagles GC at Fort Monmouth, Eatontown, NJ
Swope Memorial GC, Kansas City, MO
Tulsa CC, Tulsa, OK
Upper Montclair CC, Clifton, NJ
Wilton Grove CC
Winged Foot GC, West & East Courses, Mamaroneck, NY
Wyoming Valley CC, Wilkes Barre, PA

[JakaB]

Phillip,

I can easily live with your list minus the four extinct courses...so lets put Tillie at 58 and hope when the Ross experts chime in I missed his number by plus or minus 40 for arguments sake.  Speaking of Young, I feel remiss at not mentioning Mike and his 3 great ones..

[JakaB]

Here is the list of the member architects of the ASGCA...I count around 171 living working guys who I am sure have at least designed or worked on a few great courses....Please if you might be so kind to name even one guy on the list that at least hasn't worked on a great course....put your dead favorites in the pool and the numbers just really start to add up.  

 
 
Albanese, Paul  Amick, William  
Andrew, Ian  Ault, Brain  
Baird, Gary Roger   Baril, Richard  
Beebe, Michael  Beidel, Edward  
Beljan, Jan   Benedict, Kevin  
Benkusky, Mike  Bennett, Dave  
Benz, Bradford  Bickler, Cary  
Blaukovitch, James  Bliss, Fredrick  
Boorman, Glenn  Boswell, William  
Brauer, Jeffery   Burns, Stephen  
Butler, Ty  Carrick, Douglas  
Chang, Nai Chung "Lee"  Charlton, S. Bruce  
Clark, Thomas   Clifton, George  
Clifton, Lloyd   Cochran, Chris  
Colligan, John  Commins, Chris  
Coore, Bill  Cornish, Geoffrey S.  
Costello, Brian  Cowley, Paul  
Cupp, Robert   Curley, Brian  
Dale, David   Dasher, Michael  
Dye, Alice   Dye, P.B.  
Dye, Perry   Dye, Pete  
Dye, Jr., Kenneth  Eckenrode, Todd  
Ervin, Lindsay  Evans, Keith  
Ezell, Kenneth  Farley, Floyd  
Fazio, Thomas  Forrest, Steven  
Foster, Keith   Fought, John  
Freeland, Timothy  Fry, Dana  
Furber, Les  Garbin, Ferdinand  
Gentry, Stan   Gill, Garret  
Gleason, Michael  Gordon, David  
Griffiths, Denis  Hamilton, Alan  
Hanse, Gil  Harbottle III, John  
Hardin, Jeff   Harvey, A. John  
Haserot, Grant  Haworth, Neil  
Hearn, Ray  Heatwole, David  
Herfort, Don  Hills, Arthur  
Hollinger, Mark  Huntley, Brian  
Hurdzan, Dr. Michael  Jacobson, Richard  
Johnson, Tom  Johnston, Clyde  
Jones, Rees  Kavanaugh, Kenneth  
Kay, Stephen  Kerman, William  
Kern, Ronald  Killian, Ken  
Kirby, Ronald  Knott, Donald  
LaFoy, John  Larsen, Erik  
Lawrence, Jeff  Letsche, Greg  
Liddy, Timothy  Linn, Gary  
Lipe, Jr., James W.  Lohmann, Robert  
Love, William  Lucovsky, Jeffrey  
Lussier, Brian   Mahannah, Charles  
Maples, Dan  Martin, Gregory  
Martz, Victoria   Marzolf, Thomas  
Matthews, Jerry  Matthews, W. Bruce  
McBroom, Thomas  McCumber, Mark  
Meagher, Neal   Minchew, Harrison  
Moore, Jr., Robert W.  Moote, David  
Moote, Robert F.  Morrish, Jay  
Muirhead, Greg  Mungeam, Mark A.  
Myers, Jeffrey  Nash, Greg  
Nelson, Eric   Nelson, Robin Nelson  
Nicklaus, Jack  Nicklaus II, Jack  
Nugent, Richard P.  Nugent, Timothy P.  
Packard, E. Lawrence   Palmer, Arnold  
Panks, Gary  Pascuzzo, Damian  
Phelps, Richard M.  Phelps, Rick  
Phillips, Kyle  Pirkl, Gerald  
Poellot, J. Michael   Powell, Lewis  
Pulley, Jr., Algie M  Rainville, David  
Rathert, Mark  Raugust, Andrew  
Richardson, Forrest  Robbins, Richard  
Robinson, Cabell B.  Robinson, Ted  
Rogers, Drew  Rulewich, Roger  
Sanford, John   Sargent, Jr., George F.  
Schaupeter, Art  Schlegel, Daniel J.  
Schmidt, Lee  Schreiner, Craig  
Seay, Ed  Sherman, Scot  
Silva, Brain  Smelek, Michael  
Smyers, Steven  Spear, William  
Steidel, John   Stenson, Robert (Brit)  
Stephenson, Gary  Straka, Jason  
Teufel, William G.  Trent Jones Jr., Robert  
Walker, Robert C.  Weed, Robert  
Weisser, Steve   Whelchel, David  
Wilczynski, Christopher   Williams, George  
Wiltse, Ray  Witcombe, Shane  
Wogan, Philip  Wright, Rodney  
Yoder, Brian
 
 

[John_Cullum]

I can name one...but, I won't.

[JakaB]

John before you do check out http://www.asgca.org/MemberList.aspx and click on the guys name.  Most guys have web sites or list courses they have worked on and I have yet to find a guy without his hands on at least one course.

[tonyt]

rgkeller makes an interesting point with the comparison to players. In each sport, if one discusses the true "greats", one would probably contain the list to between half a dozen and a dozen, with a handful of others debated among friends as to their worthiness or their "great" status. In no way would we expand such a list to include 50, 60 or 70 players, let alone 100. There would never be a discussion where Larry Nelson and Craig Wood would be described as among history's elite greats of the game. There is a limit to how far you can come down from Nicklaus et al and still be able to stand those guys along side him.

But I don't think we can relate these miserly numbers across to golf courses. If golf courses only existed for a couple of decades, and then vanished as golfers do, eventually passing on and leaving just accounts, pictures and some old film, then perhaps only a dozen or so from pre-World War II would truly be held up as greats, with a few debated ones on that or the next tier. Without exposure, many of the greats would have a lesser known profile or be less regarded due to the lack of exposure or known accounts, and others would rely on a small array of their staunchest supporters just to get attention. And none of us on these boards would have played any of them, nor would many of those who had been into architecture so much at the time.

But most are still here today. Like with the player comparison, we should perhaps stand each candidate along side Pine Valley, The Old Course, Royal Melbourne et al and then we can see how far down we are willing to come and still call a course great.

Personally, I believe if you lined up the player and course list, the courses worthy of the rankings 40-50 and 50-60 would stack up a lot closer comparitively to the Pine Valleys than the golfers would to Jack Nicklaus. Still well back, but without as steep a drop off.

So if the depth and strength of the second fifty is so good, then the final answer depends only on the individual's demands of the definition of greatness. Without too much polarising difference between our definitions, there could still be a reasonably fine line between 30-40 courses making it or close to 100. Given I can feel incredible bliss, enjoy a high quality golf journey and a magical twilight evening on a course nowhere near Australia's top 100, then surely I must permit myself to join the more leniant group. I know there are many courses unworthy of the top 100 that would blow me away and have me thinking of retiring there.

[Tom_Doak]

When I used to nag people to return ballots for the GOLF Magazine 100 Greatest Courses list, one of the people I'd have to nag was Pete Dye.  He just didn't think there were really 100 great courses.  He always said there were about 40 that were in a class of their own, and then a ton of good courses after that which he couldn't separate.

He said he was proud to have one or two of those forty to his credit.