Gull Winged green

[Michael Dugger]

From time to time I come across this reference to a particular type of green.  It is said Riviera's 15th is one of this ilk.  Doak mentions in the Guide a few of the green at Oakland Hills being Gull Winged.

Can someone describe it for me?  Perhaps an image?

[Brad Swanson]

Michael,
   I may be wrong about this, but in my mind it is a green that is low in the middle and slopes up on both sides.  I just played a good example of this yesterday (Beechtree #17).

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Michael,
Riviera's 15th is such a big green, its almost impossible to get a suitable and explainable picture of it that can accurately explain the detail on both sides.

Its more like a gull's wing making a banked left turn!

Its actually set more left to right then it looks when your looking at it in an aerial. This photo is actually taken from right of the fairway



The hole before it, the 14th, is also very gull-wing-like. Only its straight into it from the tee shot. In comparison, these two successive greens aren't anything alike in character at all.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's 15th at Riviera from above:

[ForkaB]

Tommy and Scott

For those of us who are experientially and/or 3-dimensionally-challenged, what exactly does "Gull Winged" mean?  GCA wise, of course.

Can either of you (or someone else) do a schematic (preferentially 2-dimensional) to tell us what this means--and why this meaning has any relevance, GCA-wise?

Thanks

[TEPaul]

Gull-winged is a green that generally the right and left side of the surface slopes in towards the middle.

Fazio's #10 at Galloway National is one of the most dramatic "gull-winged" greens I've seen. The hole is a very long par 4 and the effect this very large gull-winged green has of filtering balls in towards the middle seems appropriate.

If you ever saw one of those great old Mercedes "gull-wing" sports cars with both doors open you'd understand better the meaning of "gull-winged" in this green shape context.

[ForkaB]

Comprende, compadre.  So how is this different from a punchbowl green?

PS--I know Merc gull wings well, as a pal of mine in college had one.  Even Tiger at his prime couldn't have landed a 5-iron on them much less got any spin.......

[TEPaul]

"Comprende, compadre.  So how is this different from a punchbowl green?"

If you're looking at it from the front or the rear about the same way a Mercedes gull-wing with both doors open looks different from a punchbowl green.  

[ForkaB]

So what does a "punchbowl" green look like?  Surely not a punchbowl, at least in my experience.........

[TEPaul]

I'd say a punchbowl green would appear to have the green slope in from all sides or at least three while a "gull-wing" green has the right and left sides slope inward when one approaches it. However, I wouldn't expect this term (as with many golf architecture terms) as it applies to the shape of a green exactly has to pass the OED's etymology or definition test!  

[ForkaB]

Thakns Tom

Can we say, then, that a Gull Winged green has no complications on the direct approach (i.e.no false front) and a fallaway at the back?  Sound like #4 Spyglass or #6 Kingsbarns to me.

No?

[TEPaul]

"and a fallaway at the back?"

I would not necessarily say that in every case or even most.

[ForkaB]

"and a fallaway at the back?"

I would not necessarily say that in every case or even most.

The Mercedes Gull Wing fell off at the back......

[JNC Lyon]

15th at Teugega in New York could be considered gull-winged. It's a par three, about 165, and the green appears almost carved down into the hill from above. It isn't a large green, and the wings leave only a few a possible pin placements, but it still holds interest, especially if the green is missed left or right. Would love to hear any comments from those who have played it.

[TEPaul]

"The Mercedes Gull Wing fell off at the back...... "

Well, Rich, if there was a golf architect who ever attempted to precisely duplicate or imitate a gull-wing Mercedes with a green shape that sloped inward from the right and left, and perhaps the back, I'm not aware of it.    

[Michael Dugger]

thanks for the input guys.  

would the lower #9 at Pac be gull winged???

[Mike_Cirba]

Isn't a gull-winged green almost a Biarritz turned on its side?

The 6th green at Kelly Moran's Hawk Pointe Golf Club is probably the most severely sloped gull-winged green this side of North Berwick's 16th.

Also, what's the difference between a gull-winged green and Raynor's "Double Plateau" green?

[ForkaB]

"The Mercedes Gull Wing fell off at the back...... "

Well, Rich, if there was a golf architect who ever attempted to precisely duplicate or imitate a gull-wing Mercedes with a green shape that sloped inward from the right and left, and perhaps the back, I'm not aware of it.    

Tom

The 6th at Kingsbarns seems to fit the bill.