Architecture Forum

[Forrest Richardson]

Many of you may have heard about this, but I thought I'd post basic information for anyone interested. It is for a good cause, to raise money for golf architecture education grants/scholarships.

The ASGCA is hosting an Architecture Forum from March 10-12 in Orlando. Pete Dye, Geoff Cornish, Don Knott, and Jay Morrish, among others. Arnold Palmer will speak also. This is a very limited and cozy forum -- designed for the golf architecture enthusiast who can afford a few days off, not to mention a "first class" affair. Proceeds are going to the ASGCA Foundation which supports education and other worthwhile causes.

The Forum is featured on the ASGCA's web site:

<asgca.org>

[Scott_Burroughs]

Wow.

Golf w/Arnie and others such as Dye, Cornish, and Morrish. Too bad it's a little out of my price range.

I just hope Pete Dye talks more than in his GCA Interview.  

[RJ_Daley]

I'd bet some interesting topics are covered there.  It will be very interesting to see who would attend such a meet with the cost of $7500 per person, and limitted to 20 participants.  I hope they come away with some sort of group statement that supports ideas bein promoted on the ASGCA website to find a way to reduce the impact of length and cost inorder to bring more people into the game.  

But, will Arnie reconsider his theory of Joe Blow being allowed under the rules to use non-conforming equipment (driver) inorder to have more fun and hit the ball farther?  He is going to have a clinic to demonstrate how archies defend par.  I don't think Dye will learn much there, and perhaps will assist in teaching that clinic.  That sounds to me like the theme won't be one of minimalist architectural theory, golf to promote fun and strategic options for the average golfer, or low cost construction and maintenance.  But, I hope I'm wrong... :-/

I suggest that the participants tag on another $1000 to the event, gas up Arnies plane and flyout to Santa Cruz the day after and get the real low down on Architecture from the unofficial GCA gathering.  They'd probably get more diverse ideas on GCA in one night at the smoker to be held at the Inn at Pasa Tiempo, than the whole Bayhill thing, IMHO.

[Michael Dugger]

$7500 bucks for 20 participants....and we wonder why golf architecture is heading the direction it is???  Big maintenance budgets, $250 rounds, Augusta-like conditioning, $500 drivers, $4.00 golf balls and 'cart only' golf courses.  

Might it be because 'average Joe' isn't represented in these sorts of functions.  Boy, it gets tiring trying to convince everyone that golf is a game 'for the people, by the people' instead of a recreational activity for the rich (like everyone believes)

"I am Tiger Woods"  Hmmm

[Forrest Richardson]

mdugger --  Unfair, I think, to place the burden you mention on this event. There are, in any free enterprise system, events and products which cater to narrow audiences. At least this is one in which the well-to-do are ultimately giving back to others. Just because the chairman of the board flies first class is no reason to assume he/she has bad intentions. Some can afford luxury and can buy their education. I believe a lot may be learned and discussed which will transmit to golf in positive ways, not to mention that a furthering of awareness about golf architecture will be a by-product.

[Michael Dugger]

Forrest...unfair you say

Sure, sort of, in your opinion.  I don't mean to offend.  I suppose what I suggested was captured more eloquantly, and politically correct, by RJ Daley in the post directly above mine.  

It really has nothing to do with this 'particular' event.  But it does.  It has to do with every event.   I would like to think that the 20 who attend this event, and those who are involved already, have an understanding of the 'betterment of golf'.  Or how did you put it, "transmit to golf in positive ways".  But, I'm afraid they will only understand these positive gains in relation to their own reality.  Which, by the way, is a reality that is very different from my own considering these guys are plunking down 7500 bucks.

I take it you are going to be in attendance.  Good for you, if I could I would too.  But don't blow smoke up my ass that these guys are going to be talking about the need for more Rustic Canyons and Wildhorses because they are not.  

It is not unlike many of the problems facing the U.S. as a whole.  10% owns 90% of the wealth.  This is not me complaining or whining, it's the facts.  Call me crazy, but when 90% of golfers and golf course architecture students/consultants/experts are not LOGISTICALLY ABLE to attend this event.......well, that doesn't seem to be a very accurate representation of those folks who are paying the bills.

[jg7236]

Forrest,

The proceeds go to education, in detail if possible, what sort of things is ASGCA setting up?  In refrence to the $7500 that is extreme, to ask for that kind of money when the economy is this bad.  I hope the forum fills the 20 they need because I just spoke with Steve Wynn and Donald Trump and they thought the price was pretty high too!!  If one wants a good seminar for the right price one should take a couple of executive education seminars at Harvard University the week of March 24th.  Consisting of two seminars costing $820-a-piece and getting taught by some very respectful golf course archtiects like Robert Muir Graves/Brian Silva/and Dr. Michael J. Hurdzan, PhD.  Last week I spoke with Dr. Hurdzan and at that price he told me they might not get the expected students they need and the classes might be canceled.  I wish I could go to the forum in Orlando and Harvard, since my lay off in the golf industry I am lucky to afford a six pack of Natural Light.

[Forrest Richardson]

No, I'm not attending. But I will call attention to this thread and perhaps it can be brought up at the Forum in order to foster some good discussion.

Regarding the ASGCA Foundation, the ASGCA web site has a good bit on this. <asgca.org>

[John Bernhardt]

I must confess finding $7500.00 is too high for much of anything. I think the only people that will attend are the Executives of the large corporate Real Estate Dev companies. I hope, but doubt that this outting will change their basic approach to dev andarchitecture. I hope I am wrong for if 3 of 20 hear something and act on it we are better off for it. A lot of what they have been doing is so wrong and bad.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Forrest,
I'm totally enjoying your new book, phenominal stuff. I recommend it highly to all it is worth the time and the money. I even appreciate directing us to the link for this event. It certainly is an impressive event for those who can afford it.

But...................

I'm going to applaude Dick Daley and Mr. Dugger here. In fact, I think they're both spot on, dead balls accurate.

Maybe this is a sort of horrible way of looking at the Game from a non-golf business angle, but these are two guys who seem to be calling it like it is. While I'm not sure what Mr. Dugger's interests in the game are, but I do know Mr. Daley's, and they have only the best interests of the Game at heart. He is more then just one of the 25 million in the US of A that play the Game of Golf.

While I'm sure that the event is being staged with the best intentions by the ASGCA, it is clear that the ASGCA is doing this for a certain classification of people.

Why is Arnold Palmer going to be there instead of Forrest Richardson who has just got done producing a phenominal book on Golf Course Routing, Design and its History?

My point is that it sounds like a meeting that has the same express purpose as a baseball fantasy camp (Not that there is anything wrong with it.) One spends the money and gets to meet some people who have had celebrity in the business, and then they get to tell all their friends and aquaintances how much more they know then you about Golf Architecture because of it.

One could even take that $7500.00 and buy a whole original library of books on golf course architecture and have even more to show for it then just one weekend of memories of playing with the King.

I'll tell you this though, If I had it, I would rather take 1/4 of that $7500, spend it on a really good dinner with some killer bottles of vino and talk all night about golf routing with you, Jeff Brauer or any other ASGCA members that wanted to join-in.

Maybe even RJ and MDugger would even join too!

A better suggestion for the ASGCA would or could be similar to their successful Remodeling U seminars where even the ASGCA could invite local or sectional environmentalists to see what difference the ASGCA is helping in their plight to protect the environment. It could be an educational thing for all to see that golf courses fast and firm and affordable are a good thing.

And lets see if Arnold Palmer would come for that too--I think you know what his answer would be.

[Matt_Ward]

The $25 Winter Gathering at Alpine CC turns out to be a real bargain when compared to the $7500 being asked for.

[Forrest Richardson]

John -- 3 of 20 is not bad. I feel bad that this post has so much negative associated with it. But it's nothing that communication cannot overcome. It is when people get a stubborn and negative attitude that things cannot change. When, on the other hand, there is positive and constructive communication and dialogue wonderful things can happen. Disney said, "It's kind of fun to do the impossible." No job is too large, including changing minds.

[Michael Dugger]

Tommy N....

You are just absolutely one of my favorite guys.  I'm certain one day we will cross paths.  

My intentions.....quite simple.  Just another middle-class guy with nothing to lose.  Hard to sink further down then barely being able to afford to golf once a week.  Let alone cough up the duckets to go to Pebble.

I love golf for the purest of reasons.  It is a wonderful way for people to spend their leisure time.  It is a timeless game that pays no attention to color and gender.  Wrinkly old folks can get out of the house, breath in some fresh air and stretch those old legs.  I'll spare repeating Dr. Mackenzie's quote about 'people on his doorstep' for the umteenth time.

Golf allows for those who cannot run fast or jump high to engage-in, and maybe even excel-at, a competitive game.  A game that is unique in that there are a million different ways of getting the ball from said tee into said hole....a 300 yard drive counts the same as a 1 inch putt.  One of my favorite quotes of all time is found in the beginning of Shack's Master of the Links.  It is Robert Hunter talking about the ideal old course and 'that bewhisked old timer'.  Revisit it if you own the book, it is phenomenal.

I love this game.  It teaches us and rewards us in so many ways til the very day we die.  I'll never forget getting up and down from behind the clubhouse at the crappy nine hole course in Deer Lodge, MT to match my girlfriend's father's par.  I'll never forget every single time I start out birdie-par, only to help myself to a large dose of humble pie on the following hole.  Golf teaches us humility, sportsmanship and something along the lines of what I'd call pride.  

Many, MOST, of the wonderful golf courses of today are unavailable to me.  When I made my sabbatical to Pacific Dunes this past spring I felt like I had experienced some serious enlightenment.  To me it is a chance to look God squarely into the eye and say, "bring it on!"  

Funny thing, though, when I go to Sandpines I can't find him.  

Forrest.....I'm sorry if I have dragged this thread down.  Like I said, I have nothing to lose.  I already know that there are people here who think I am an a-hole.  It's ok.  I'll gladly be the GCA Machivelli (sp?)

[yogi_barry]

Forrest,

Do you think ASGCA is an especially effective organization?  I don't ask in any way as a negative judgement, I'm just curious of your thoughts.

I'm a member of ULI (Urban Land Institute), and their professional development courses/conferences are terrifically expensive (albeit superior) compared to other professional associations in which I participate.  The fee and exclusivity of this forum strikes me a little strangely - and it must strike others the same by the tone of this thread.  

[Donald Kaufman]

I think this is a great deal because as I understand it Arnold is going to give a speech on how he prepares to inaugurate in front of an opening day crowd the great golf courses he's designed but has never actually seen (which is every one of them?). Arnold will discuss the difficulty of memorizing the names of key clients while traveling through air turbulence on the Gulfstream 4. The difficulty of remembering which is the signature hole, and of course the trauma of trying to remembr what state he's in when he shows up for that big opening day. Sounds like it'll be worth every penny! And all for charity!!!!

[Neal_Meagher]

Donald Kaufman,

According to the very "insightful" interview with Mr. Palmer on last night's Golf Talk Live (God do I miss Peter Kessler), he is the proud owner of the fastest biz jet available, the mach.92 Cessna Citation X.

And, that is all I feel comfortable saying about this particular topic.

[Forrest Richardson]

Yogi -- Yes. Any organization that could stimulate this many posts among this crowd is effective. I mean, just to have Tommy N. here is a wonderful event. Unbelievable that he didn't mention the routing of TSN as being "great".

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Forrest,
I hope I don't detect a touch of anger here. My response was specifically addressing this thread in the most honorable of intentions, and it wasn't meant to belittling to any one or any organization. It was just my honest opinion. I don't think this thread is going in a WRONG direction. In fact I think it is going in the most positive. I'm hoping that some of these issues perceived by us, the people that would really like to benefit from an exceptional seminar hosted by the predominate golf architects association, can be addressed in future seminars that are gauged in more liberal manner.

Do I have a problem with the ASGCA? I do when it comes to staging these events in the form of education, because it isn't doing that. Its just entertainment. Very, very expensive entertainment.

There is so many things that the 25 million golf playing American's need to learn about Golf, and the ASGCA is an organization that should be targeting everyone of them. After all, just who are ASGCA-member architects designing for?

If the ASGCA and the majority of the members could help guide the Game to better, less commercially motivated in-roads for the public to understand, I think the Game could and would be that much closer to being stronger and more definitive as a lifestyle as it was to the old Scots--only for American's.

So I ask you, which is better? Securing the Game's future by educating the youth of tomorrow or creating an event for the privledged few that are forking out $7,500 for a weekend to shake Arnold Palmer's hand?

Also, Is there somewhere on the ASGCA website that allows one to see where and who the ASGCA architecture education grants/scholarships fund is going to?

[jg7236]

Tommy,

I too, couldn't find anything on the ASGCA website on where the architecture education/grants are going.  I got plenty of time due to the economy, I would love a grant to study the game of golf in Scotland!!!!

[Forrest Richardson]

Tommy N. - Me, anger? Really. Which is better? I am not certain your choices are mutually exclusive. Nor that one may not, indeed, be accommodated by the other.

jg7236 -- Are you the sone of Walter 7236? I haven't seen Walter in years. How is 4539? And the Roman Numerals? Anyway, regarding your question, I'm only aware of some of the undertakings: managing the Society's "Living History" program where captures video and records from older architects so they can be archived; publication of a series of accessible golf publications for municipalities and developers; publication of ways to reduce costs for learning courses and public projects; and underwriting of grants issued by the Society. I'm not familiar in detail with the distrtibution of funds. I'll e-mail you with the name of someone who may be able to get a better answer.

[redanman]

The $25 Winter Gathering at Alpine CC turns out to be a real bargain when compared to the $7500 being asked for.

Touche.  Cute.  Thanks again Matt and Patrick, too.

What about the $7500 that is really disappointing is that it is a selection process as to who is to attend.  

Consider my vote in the same camp as Messrs. dugger and Daley.  

[Bye]

Keep in line here that the bottom line is that everything the ASGCA does is for the benefit of its members. If you want to donate $7500 give it to the First Tee program or endow your own schlorship.