Fazio on Pinehurst no.4

[Jeff Goldman]

In reading up for a trip to Pinehurst next month (my first), and appropos of the topic on Waterville, I came across this tidbit of Mr. Fazio discussing his design of Pinehurst No.4:

"Those six bunkers and the 134 others dotting No. 4 are the course’s signature design feature. Fazio says the bunkers, each dressed in pristine white sand, are mostly eye candy that create a target effect, although high handicappers will likely find them a real-enough hazard. The clusters of tiny bunkers appear time and again throughout the course, while massive waste bunkers breed trepidation on 11 holes. If you’re not teeing off over these natural areas, then you’re avoiding them down the sides of the fairways.

“'There’s definitely a strong visual impact with some of the golf holes and some of the big, sandy areas,” Fazio says. “The soil happens to be sandy soil, so it was kind of a natural thing, plus it gave the course a distinctive character, different from No. 2 and different from the other golf courses.'”

Oh well.  I'm scheduled to play no.4 if they won't let me play no.2 a second time.  There's a topic from 1999 started by David Eger, which I cannot access.  Are those before 2001 gone?  Some very knowledgable folks appear to like it a lot, but pot bunkers at Pinehurst?

Jeff Goldman

[Paul Richards]

Jeff:

Do yourself a favor and play No. 2 one hundred times before you ever need to see No. 4.  

Unless you want to see lots and lots of useless bunkers, that is.

[Doug Wright]

Jeff,

The threads before December 2001 seem to be lost to antiquity, alas. When the new and improved site came on in December 2001, there was talk of preserving the old threads so they could be accessed but I don't know what's happened to that.

It makes the number of posts Doyen Paul's made in a little over 13 months all the more amazing.  

All The Best,

[Paul Richards]

Doug:

Not sure how to take that.

[Doug Wright]

Not you O Great Doyen Paul Richards. I was referring to the Doyen of all Doyens, Mr. TE Paul, 5 million posts or whatever he's got and going strong.

All The Best,

[Jim_H]

Number 4 is "Fazio does Donald Ross."  It almost qualifies as a replica course.  He should stick to being Fazio--for better or worse.

[Paul Richards]

Doug:

Thanks for the explanation.

Jim H:

You're correct.  No. 4 is marketed as "Fazio does Ross."

Unfortunately, it is a very disappointing rendition.

[mike_beene]

Jeff,I know you have said walking is a problem.On #2 you either walk with a caddy or stay on the cart path.The paths are a long way from the fairways.The course is pretty flat so I suggest you go ahead and take the caddy,you'll walk just as much with a cart.#4 allows carts on fairway.I think 4 is a good course.It felt a lot like #2 with less severe greens and more scenery.I would play 2 twice if possible,but 4 is a good second course.

[redanman]

Go play Tobacco Road instead of #4.  Seriously.

Don't poison your mind.  
Play #6 instead of #4.  (Not a tyop)
Play #3 instead of #4. (Or have they re-done those greens, too?)  
Hell, hit balls instead of play #4.

#4 in its previous incarnations was a cute little golf course with some good and admittedly some blah holes.  Now it is merely experiential.  Misguided, in fact.  Somehow the current owners of #2 have not yet screwed it up.

In all seriousness, go play Tobacco Road instead.  Go off early, though.

[Hart Huffines]

#4 is a good course, not a great one.  Parts of it
are enjoyable and very pretty.  I do not care for
the pot bunker effect and another problem is some
of the greens are elevated and very hard to chip
to.  It is my hope the Pinehurst people will re-use the
space holes #1 and #18 occupy for the 2005 US Open
corp. tent village and redesign afterwards.  I
feel Fazio went over the top on #4 and #8 trying
to build Ross like greens.

Tobacco Road is a fun course but I wouldnt drive
past Mid Pines, Pine Needles or even So. Pines to
play there.  If you're on a package then you might
ask about #7 or #8.  Rees Jones just finished
an upgrade to #7.

[Bryan_Pennington]

Redanman,

You can not be serious about #6...it is the worst example of everything Diamond Head did wrong in Pinehurst.  #6 was a solid course when it originally opened, but the development has ruined the course.  Lot lines on both sides of the fairway have narrowed the fairways to unplayable levels.  You are forced to play balls over corners with OB and hope they stop before the OB on the other side of the fairway.  #6 was used as an excuse to build as many houses and condos as possible to maximize profits.

While I am not sold on #4 as a "world class" course, I would rather play putt-putt than play #6.  And for those who think #4 is a bad "Fazio does Ross", have you played the even worse "Fazio does Ross", #8.

[BCrosby]

I have not played the new #4, but Fazio's #8 is maybe the worst resort course I've ever played. For several reasons. But the first one is that it has - if I remember correctly - 12 blind drives. On a course that most people will only play once and without a caddy. Breathtaking.

Bob

[redanman]

Bryan

I can still remember when #6 opened.  The Fazio & Fazio layout has a few weak holes, but actually is one of their bes uses of natural land contours around, rare for Mr F.

I agree totally about the surrounds these days, but the holes are still there and maybe I block out the extraneous junk.  There are actually bunkers in play, bunkers to be challenged and real strategy in places, built on  some interesting topography.  It is the surrounds that have been changed at #6, the golf course at #4 so we're really talking aesthetics.

Rmember that I am a Rees supporter, but I cannot support #7; and #8 (Mr. F again) is quite possibly the most overblown, poorly routed resort/core course in existence.  That's the best Pinehurst could do to revel in its centennary?  Give me a break.

Personally, I won't go to the resort any more.  It is outrageous what they charge and unfortunately, I am old enough to remember the days there where you played in the a.m. in four hour foursomes on #2 and cart ball on any other course you chose in the afternoon in about an hour and change.  And it cost less than $200 a day servis compris.  Now it's $325 just for a six hour round at 2p.m. on #2, one solitary time during your stay.  Bullshit.  Get someone else's money.

As for Mid Pines and Pine Needles and the Elks Club, I did not mean to disparage them, but more folks out to get out of town and see Tobacco Road, it is pretty cool, not without faults.  An eye-opener it is.

[Rick_Noyes]

Hart,

#7 has undergone renovation, but I'm not sure it's open as yet.

#6 was scheduled to be renovated.  But ClubCorp is citing the economy woes and has put it on hold.  The same goes for #9 and #10.  They cleared it about a year & 1/2 or so ago, but that's where it remains.

I have not played #4, but from what I've seen and heard Fazio tried doing groups of small bunkers rather than one large bunker.  It's looks a little different, but it's got to be a maint. headache.

Rick

[A_Clay_Man]

While I have never been to the resort and it sounds like if they are marketing it as Fazio does Ross, maybe they meant it in a biblical sense.

[Bryan_Pennington]

Redanman,

I also remember #6 when it first opened.  I had to opportunity to play the course about 6 months after it first opened.  When the course opened, there were zero out of bounds stakes and zero development.  The course was fun and I can understand your fond memories.  Having played the course recently, I will never return.  The houses and condos have encroached on the course to a point where I believe it alters the original design.  The course was meant to be played like #2 which rewards properly placed tee shots and forces creative solutions for wayward tee shots.  Now a wayward tee shot is OB and I believe fundementally changes how you approach playing the course.  

Pinehurst is still special and hopefully #7's renovation will be excellent.  #2 is expensive (better in the deep summer) but a treat non the less.  Holding my breath on #9.  

[Jeff Goldman]

Thanks for the replies, and sorry about the late reply from me (actually had to do work -- don't these people know I'm busy?).  I put the quote in because it seemed to support the idea that Mr. Fazio puts in stuff simply because it looks cool, regardless of how if fits in or affects the playing of the course.  From the website, the little bunkers look mostly out of play.

In any event, my present schedule is to be there feb. 21-25, and play, in order, Pine Needles, no. 2, no. 4 and Tobacco Road (on the way to the airport).  I'm going to call the proshop a week or so before the trip and try to talk my way onto a second trip thru no. 2.  I suppose I wouldn't mind playing no. 4, which others have reviewed favorably, but I've seen a lot more Fazio (Glen Club, Ventana Canyon, Shadow Creek) than Ross (zip).

Thanks again,

Jeff Goldman