New Pebble Beach development

[johnk]

Detailed article in the USA Today on the battle by the PB Co. to add a new course and develop more land:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/golf/2005-03-13-monterey-golf_x.htm

Two questions:
1) Where exactly is the location?
2) Who's gonna design the new course (Fazio?)

[Peter Galea]

I believe that the "Forest Course" will begin at the Polo Fields, just past the driving range, and wind it's way inland toward Spyglass Hill. Fazio is rumored to be the one.

[Bob_Huntley]

When you spend several hundred million dollars to buy a special piece of property, there has to be some rationale for the trade and the expansion the Company envisages, would help meet the nut. Although raising the greens fee at Pebble Beach to $425.00 per round helps, it doesn't meet all the requirements for return on investment.

The eco-terrorists of the Coastal Commision and Sierra Clubuse use the three-toed spotted sloth owl as an example of a unique species worthy of saving. I've played golf in these parts for close to forty years and never seen the critter. Some of the wetlands are bogs left over after heavy rains, they dry up and are not much of a habitat for wandering geese.

This fight has been going on for years and will do so for a while. My advice, don't bet against the PB Company.

[johnk]

So the course isn't going to be touching the ocean anywhere.  How much purview does the Coastal Commission have?  A mile inland?  I know it doesn't matter to them, but I wonder what the law is.

I'm not betting against the PB Co. either.  Much like Stanford up here, these institutions know they have time on their side.  They can always just wait until the staunch opponents die...

As some philosopher once said: "In 100 years - all new people"

And in the forest, if they wait long enough, they probably won't have to worry too much about cutting down a lot of trees.  Aren't the pines still dying off?

[Scott_Burroughs]

And in the forest, if they wait long enough, they probably won't have to worry too much about cutting down a lot of trees.  Aren't the pines still dying off?

Then they'd just call it the Deforest Course.

[THuckaby2]

Or even better, Bones Hill.

DeForest Kelley... get it?

 

I slay myself.

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Alex,
I could name you a few guys that has been a victim to them. Bob's words are pretty much accurate because they will stoop to no end when it comes to proving their point, no matter if it is right or wrong. These aren't people in it for protecting their environment. These are people that make a pretty decent wage for doing it.

Go up to Santa Barbara and see that property where the Eco Terrorists planted three (3) frogs that would never inhabit a oil refinery. I can tell you if they did, they wouldn't be around for long, they would be dead from that kind of a environment pretty quick.

God forbid they build a wholesome and lush green grass golf course on that property which would be maintained organically.

[rgkeller]

Well, certainly Pebble Beach needs more housing for the suckers who come to the resort.

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy - "they would be dead from that kind of environment pretty quick."       Maybe that was their point!  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill,
Well that was the point of demolishing the oil refinery that was there. To make it a worthwhile endeavor to stop the oil business there. So what are you to believe? That ARCO be allowed to further produce or allow golf in?

Yes, this is something that should have been addressed years ago, but it wasn't.  ARCO, if they want, could in fact build another oil refinery on that property and their is nothing that the Eco-terrorists could do about it. It was permitted long ago, and in fact, I'm told by people in the business that the refinery is still working to some extent.

Don't get me wrong, I'm for the environment--sensibly. Frankly, they should be worrying more about what UNOCAL did further up in the sand dunes of Guadalupe. Now that was a crime!~

[Bob_Huntley]

Alex,

I have a question for you, do you live within the Commissions purview?

I will give you one example of their arrogance, I could multiply it tenfold.

Across the road from Cypress Point, Bert Bonnano built a house and installed a four hole golf course. That was sixteen years ago. It has been there unchanged lo all these many years. Bonnano sold the house for fourteen million dollars a couple of years ago.

The new owner got a notice from the commission a few months ago to remove the golf course and replace it with native plantings or pay a fine of some thousands of dollars a day. It went to trial and thank God, the judge asked, if the Commission was doing its duty to protect the environment and this was in open view for all to see, why had it taken sixteen years to address the problem?

The case was dismissed and the miniature course remains.

Both entities mentioned in my original post have the best of intentions, but the politics of envy is always apparent.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Alex,

We've been using the term "eco-terrorists" for the environmentalist groups (all of which seem to think golf and golf courses are evil and equivalent to putting toxic waste dumps on land) for years on this board.  They essentially hold land hostage from any development for various causes.  In places like Long Island, they hold land hostage sometimes for decades.

It tooks many years for what is now East Hampton GC to finish.  Friar's Head had stumbling blocks.  Ever hear of Stony Hill GC?  Stuck.

[Bob_Huntley]

Alex,

When I have the time, I will give you some instances where residents of this area have been subjected to bullying by the entities mentioned previously. They even get into the act when you want an extra toilet in your house.

Please, don't tell me about the good they do, chronicle the disregard for property rights that they flaunt in their elitist organizations.

[Dan_Callahan]

Please, don't tell me about the good they do, chronicle the disregard for property rights that they flaunt in their elitist organizations.

An environmental group being labeled an "elitist organization?"

Isn't that kind of ironic coming from a GCA message board?  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I have to agree wholehearteddly with Bob.
I have a close friend who pruchased a house just off the 12th tee at Pebble Beach.
The exsisting house was somewhat run down aand somewhat of an isore to the people at the resort.
Mt freind demolished the house and proceede to build an attractive house on the same grounds......all of a sudden rules that did not apply before come screaming out of the woodwork..not from the resort owners but the eco groups..in a 10000 sq foot house they suggested just two toilets and two showers...when the demolished house had 6 of each...courts prevailed under similar reasoning to that cited by Bob and the minature golf course.

Now it is a lovely place to go and visit

[A_Clay_Man]

From what LITTLE I know, there were restrictions placed on the golf course. FAzio designed around them, but had trouble getting a cart path in, with the restrictions the coastal commission put in place. So, it was decided (just over 5 years ago) that the forest Course would be walking only.

I'd suspect that it is the housing that is the contentious issue and this enviro-stuff is smoke.

Either way, the Pebble Beach co. Should be allowed to do what they want. They are the ones who would suffer from any long-term negative impacts, not some commisioner.

Also, there was talk of utilizing Spy's clubhouse as POS for both the Forest and Spyglass Hill. If that were to become true, they might have to move a road or two, but in all likelyhood, they'd just ask the walkers to walk across the street. That's where the course could traverse either towards the lodge and polo fields, or down the dunes towards the ocean, almost directly on a line with the house Bob Huntley referenced with the mini greens.

To giver a general area where All of this area is, it's between the backside of the 3rd tee at Spyglass Hiill, and the forest behind and to the right of the fifth at CPC.

[Lou_Duran]

Bob Huntley,

You're telling it like it is, though I think that the tone has to be softened.   You see, the interveners are really good people with honorable intentions.  Also, their skin is fairly thin and can't take half of what they dish out.  So, for the sake of harmony in this new year, let's address them with a bit more respect.  

I nearly had a heart attack reading Mr. Naccarato's reply to Alex.  It could very well mark the first time I've agreed with most everything he said.

I have no knowledge of UNOCAL's "crimes", but someplace in my office there is a preliminary offering package for the C & C course near Santa Barbara.  It was given to me to review by the attorney representing the developer.  This was 10 years and several millions of dollars ago.

Perhaps someone can school me on what the environmental interventionists gained for the people of California by stalling and now stopping this project.  One can easily quantify the economic losses in terms of forgone jobs, new revenues, and taxes.  It is much more difficult to put a dollar value on the benefits of remediating the land that would have resulted if the course was built.  Numbers also fail to capture the significant aesthetic values of the improved property, and the enjoyment derived from it.

May I suggest that where the environmental elites rule, the cost of golf and housing are unaffordable for a vast majority of the people?  For God's sake, if they can stop you from installing a toilet today even if it is done by a certified plummer and according to code, how long will it be until they start dictating the number of flushes per day?  Or have they thought of this in California already?

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob Huntley,


May I suggest that where the environmental elites rule, the cost of golf and housing are unaffordable for a vast majority of the people?  For God's sake, if they can stop you from installing a toilet today even if it is done by a certified plummer and according to code, how long will it be until they start dictating the number of flushes per day?  Or have they thought of this in California already?

Lou,

Seventy or more years ago Sam Morse had the San Clemente Dam built out in Carmel Valley. It provided the water supply for a great deal of the Monterey Penisula. Over the years it silted up and that, together with retrofits to bring it up to earthquake codes proved its demise.  A move was made to build a new dam, it was stopped in its tracks by environmentalists.

Now CalAm Water(owned by a German Company) puts out little glossy brochures advising their customers not to flush their toilets after each use. They use the term "Mellow Yellow," meaning don't pull the chain until the bowl looks foul enough to make one barf.

The environmentalists in this area use every tactic to halt or impede, the development of even the smallest residential property that one would wish to build. If you want to live in a Kafaesque community, try the city of Carmel. The regulations here are such that they use something they call volumetrics. If you want to find out more, call the City Planning Department, you might wish you had called the Kremlin.

[JohnV]

Back in the 1970s when there was another water shortage in California and the governor was nicknamed "Moonbeam" rather than the Terminator, the phrase was: "If its yellow let it mellow, if its Brown, flush it down."

[Mike Hendren]

Lou,

Revenues are generated by fools like me, but only God can make a tree.   Or some thing such as that.

You should get a load of what's going on here south of Nashville in the small town of Franklin.  A group of preservationists with the support of the city, is attempting to acquire a private golf course adjacent to the Carnton Mansion and Civil War Cemetery.  Carnton is notorious for the fact that no less than five dead Confederate generals were laid out on its porch after the Battle of Franklin.  The battle was literally fought through the middle of town and the loss of the five generals has long been a stigma for this incredibly quaint town.  Hence, no one really cared about a golf course being constructed on the battlefield many moons ago.  Frankly, not unlike Dallas coming to grips with President Kennedy's assasination.  

The golf course is no great shakes and the membership is being cast as un-American,  or is that un-Confederate?  Frankly, I'd sell it to them, but make somebody spit some serious quich, if you know what I mean - and I think you do (in the famous words of Joe Bob Briggs).  

I'm thinking about having the BBGE weigh in on this one.

Mike

[Lou_Duran]

Mike,

God has been very busy in our neighborhood.   After a bumper year for acorns, most yards which haven't been mowed since late last fall have hundreds and thousands of oak seedlings coming out of the grass.  Very wierd looking.

I have no problem with the historic group and the city of Franklin attempting to acquire the golf course.  If the owners, maybe the majority of the membership, and the city can come to terms, all the more power to them.

A forced taking through eminent domain or extreme pressure by the city (e.g. by curtailing the water supply, or refusing to approve permits for any restoration or construction) would be objectionable to me.

If the course is not particularly special, the club could do a sale-leaseback with the city for a nominal sum on the lease.  Using the proceeds from the sale, they could build a superior course on another site.  The lease would run until the new course and clubhouse are completed.  At that point the city and/or conservation group would take possession of the old course.

In this particular case, either the members keep the course or they are very well compensated for selling it.  Raw land is where the battle with the enviro-wackos most normally plays out.  The owner is often not allowed to develop his property to its highest and best use, or he is stalled for so long that his investors and users go elsewhere.  To me this is a forced taking of property which should demand compensation.

I don't recall how much money was spent by the developers of the aforementioned proposed golf course near Santa Barbara, but it was in the millions.  A real pity at best; outright criminal if you ask me.

We need many more Mel Gibsons rallying the troops and hollering at the top of their lungs "Give me liberty or give me death".  Instead, we have an overabundance of whiny, self-important mal-contents.