Tillinghast v Burbeck on Bethpage Black

[Matt_Ward]

Can anyone tell me with some sort of finality who really is the architect of Bethpage Black ?

I have read the June '02 Golf Digest account by Ron Whitten and I have re-read the info from the previous thread on this subject. But, I'd like to get from those "in the know" there definitive counterpoint to what Whitten wrote in that Digest issue on the subject.

Many thanks ...

[Jeff_Lewis]

Matt, for Pete's sake, we have come to expect this kind of provocation only from Kavanaugh. Do we really need a ten page argument over something that we can't really settle?

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I am not trying to be argumentative.

I am in the process in writing a narrative on the Black and given the level of detailed reporting from Whitten / re: June '02 article in Digest -- I simply want to know how people can say with 100% that Tillinghast was the chief designer when Whitten states "Tillinghast was hired on December 30, 1933, months after the Blue, Red and Black courses had been laid out (page 152).

On the next page of that same article (p. 153) Whitten further says, "He (Tillinghast) visited the Bethpage State Park in January 1934 and described the scene of 600 workers in his February issue (Golf Illustrated)."

One other note ... "In August, 1937, Tillinghast wrote for the first time about Bethpage Black, in PGA Magazine. He credited Joseph Burbeck with the very concept of the Black Course."

I just want something definitive that says otherwise -- if there is such clear evidence (not someone's opinion).

[George Pazin]

My recollection is that no one found anything definitive. Tom MacWood wrote a very good piece on the subject (ignore the one bold faced line about Rees ), but, while I am inclined to agree with him, I don't remember anything that proved anything conclusively.

The Tillinghast experts - Rick Wolfe and Phillip Young - seemed strongly in the camp of Tillinghast designed it and Burbeck built it.

The many folks who grew up on the course (and for this I envy them), yourself included, Matt, seemed to feel that the course had an overwhelmingly Tillinghast feel to it.

The one person I involved who is least credible to me personally is Burbeck's son, who seemed an important part of Mr. Whitten's evidence. This is not to say that I think he is lying or that he is not trying to be fair and honest, I just think that 1) he is too emotionally involved to be objective and 2) his recollections are long removed from the topic at hand.

At least, that's my recollection of the whole affair.

 

[Mark_Fine]

Matt,
Who designed all the Ross topo courses?  If you say Ross, then Tillinghast designed The Black because the routing was done by Tillie.
Mark

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

You need to read the Whitten article because it gives the distinct impression that work on the design and routing was well underway before Tillie got involved as a "consultant."

[BCrosby]

Contact Phil Young. He wrote a book on BB and, I understand, did all the research.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Matt:

It looks as if at this time any definitive conclusion of exactly who did what at the Black and when is just not going to be possible as of now. If more hard info surfaces then maybe it will help fill in the whole story. Real solid timelines are almost essential in trying to recreate an accurate story of what went on out there when you're talking about two men and just applying various other pieces of available applicable information onto those established timeline is the trick, in my book. It looks like accurate timelines are doable but some of the necessary info to plug into those timelines just doesn't seem to be around anymore.

But I'll tell you a couple of things I'd dismiss completely out of hand right off the bat and from anyone, if I were you. The first is that they can definitely attribute something to an architect simply because they think it looks like an architect. I've seen a few of the best architects and analysts there are completely blow that kind of attribution before some real documentation shows up.

And the other thing I'd completely dismiss out of hand is if anyone, certainly anyone on here, claims that it's provable that Brubeck did not do the Black or various aspects of it because he couldn't have. Nobody on here has any real idea what Burbeck could or couldn't do!

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Pardon me -- but short and sweet who do you believe designed the Black -- Burbeck or Tillinghast ?

Bob C:

I will be checking with Phil's book since I have a copy.

[TEPaul]

Matt:

You should just go into the archives and review some of the voluminous Tillinghast/Burbeck/Black threads. All this crowd knows now I'm sure is in those threards.

But there was no conclusion, no real proof to it on here as near as I can remember. Some may've tried to make their own conclusions but no one proved what happened, in my opinion.

Here're a few interesting things to consider that Whitten highlighted in his article, as I recall. Burbeck was the engineer/foreman of Bethpage's courses and for a number of years as I recall. He lived there for years with his wife and young son. He was there everyday, that was his job.

Both wife and kid had very strong recollections of him working on that course and those courses every day---and during their construction. If he was overseeing all that to Tillinghast's routing and design plans I don't think any of those plans are around anymore, unfortunately, if they ever were. The wife and kid distinctly and specifically remembered Burbeck drawing a good deal too, as I recall from Whitten.  Were they just lying about that and if not what was he drawing all that time? Irrigation plans or something? That probably doesn't take all that much time in the grand scheme of things like routing, designing and constructing a course or courses.

But don't look for proof of who did what at the Black on here---you won't find it---it doesn't exist, in my opinion.

[TEPaul]

"Tom:
Pardon me -- but short and sweet who do you believe designed the Black -- Burbeck or Tillinghast?"

Matt:

Honestly, I just don't know. I wish I did. There's one important thing that anyone who tries to do this kind of thing should always keep in mind, though. There can be a routing and then a "design phase" and they aren't necessarily one and the same thing. Too many forget that fact or simply don't understand it!

I participated in all those threads and from everything I saw, from Phil Young, and Tom MacWood, from Whitten or anyone else, in my opinion, there just wasn't enough to really tell. I read everything they all wrote, their conclusions and the details they used. I never tried to look at any of the detail or specifics on my own, I just followed the flow of what was produced and it wasn't enough to really tell, in my opinion.

This isn't the same thing as what-all we're looking at now on PVGC and the Colt/Crump combination---all the timelines and enough of the details of that collaboration are comiing together now. There's never as much as anyone might want but there's enough of it now to pretty much put the pieces back together again.

[frank_D]

Can anyone tell me with some sort of finality who really is the architect of Bethpage Black ?

brother Matt Ward

i asked the same question back in 02 and phil young gave a complete answer to it [which if i knew how to do it i would tell you how to go back to my thread and read his answer]