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Matthew MacKay

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Ideal Personal Par
« on: January 23, 2005, 01:38:01 PM »
Forgive me if this has been touched upon but I'm curious about what constitutes your ideal 'personal par' of a golf course.  To clarify what I mean I'll outline how I would like a course to play for me.

3 x 3 - Three one shotters of various length and configuration


2 x 3.5 - Two holes where I'd feel pretty good about making a 3 and not overly dissapointed to make a 4

8 x 4 - Eight two shotters of various length and configuration

3 x 4.5 - Three holes where I'd feel pretty good about making a 4 and not overly dissapointed to make 5

2 x 5 - Two three shotters involving thoughtful strategy to tack my way to the green



Doug Siebert

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Re:Ideal Personal Par
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2005, 12:01:28 AM »
I won't put numbers on how many of each I'd like, because the answer is "it depends".  But I'm curious about the half par holes you have listed.  There is a big difference between a hole that is designed as a one shotter but is a really tough par 3 where even top pros are happy to walk away with a 3, and a hole that's really intended as a par 4 that offers the opportunity to drive on/near the green where a 4 makes you walk away feeling like you screwed up.  For 4 1/2 par holes I don't think this distinction really matters (other than perhaps finding a larger and more receptive green in the hole designed as a par 4)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

TEPaul

Re:Ideal Personal Par
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2005, 05:30:23 AM »
I hope this doesn't sound irascible to this particular subject but the most interesting courses I know and have seen in recent years are those where the thought of "par" in any particular arrangement or demand structure is completely overshadowed by the extreme interest of the holes of the golf course either individually or collectively. In that sense the course that struck me most that way recently was Pacific Dunes. I had no thought as to the arrangement of the pars of the holes or even what they were, and I was very surprised to learn later how unusual the sequence of pars was! If golf architects can accomplish that somehow, I think it says a lot.

paul cowley

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Re:Ideal Personal Par
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2005, 05:59:46 AM »
      I agree totally ...the handicap age has put alot of  pressure on designers to create holes that have to relate to whole numerals.....but when done successfully, half pars are what many players enjoy most.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2005, 07:36:55 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Brent Hutto

Re:Ideal Personal Par
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2005, 07:45:17 AM »
Matt,

I don't really think of it with numbers as you do but I suspect the mix of holes I like would end up pretty close to yours.

A good, fun course needs at least two short Par 4's which you would think of as Par 3.5 and perhaps Doug would consider these as "Par 3.5 of the first type". I doubt that you could build a course with no such holes that I would really like a lot.

I also like holes that are Par 3.5 of the second type, being a long almost unreachable one-shotter. As Doug points out those holes might be slightly shorter and would probably have larger and/or more receptive greens. IMO one such hole per course is nice but more than that is unnecessary unless you're going to have more than the typical four one-shotters.

For my game plenty of holes are Par 4.5, from the 6,500-yard tees they are usually designed as Par 4's and when I move up to the 6,000-yard tees there are often one or two Par 5's that become Par 4.5's.

I also think every course needs at least one Par 5 that almost nobody can reach in two and that is, if anything, a Par 5.5 for all but the strongest players. I'm thinking of the fourteenth at Cuscowilla for example. I know it's hard to do nowadays with the long hitters and long golf balls but few courses have a three-shotter where none of the three shots are trivial and where playing somewhere short of green with the third becomes necessary if you don't execute the tee shot and second shot correctly.

Finally, I wish every course had a postage stamp Par 3. Call it a Par 2.5, even. I'm talking really short where you hit a wedge or knock-down 9-iron but have a small green and either fiendish contours or slopes feeding into bunkers. That's hard to do on a course that gets 50,000 rounds a year but I love those holes.

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:Ideal Personal Par
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2005, 11:05:13 AM »
The land has something to do with this conversation as well. However in a perfect world I would like  4 par 3's. one long(225 plus), one redan, one other in the 180 to 210 range, possibly a barritz, and a short. Naturally one would want these to be in different directions.  On drivable high risk/reward par 4. 4 good old fashion tough long par 4's. 2 more somewhat long but good character par 4's. these would have much the same characteristics as the shortish but fun par 4's to follow. 3 fun short par 4's. These and the two before it would reflect some of the best green variety on the course. These would likely be the more memorable holes as well. One high risk/reward shortish par 5. 2 more traditional par 5's which reflect risk reward potential. One sure three shot hole. Then please give me a level walk to the 19th hole or men's bar that has a view or the course and or ocean. I also would like a great practice facility.

Andy Hughes

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Re:Ideal Personal Par
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2005, 11:18:04 AM »
Quote
I had no thought as to the arrangement of the pars of the holes or even what they were, and I was very surprised to learn later how unusual the sequence of pars was! If golf architects can accomplish that somehow, I think it says a lot.
Tom, a beverage cart vsiting you every two holes will accomplish the exact same thing.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Dan King

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Re:Ideal Personal Par
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2005, 02:04:12 PM »
My favorite courses has one 2.4, one hole that is 2.843, maybe three that equal . I'll take one hole that is 4.213, another that is 4.4567, maybe two that are 4.116 and another that is 4.987. One that is 5.6537, one that is 5.777 and lastly one that is an even 12. That rounds off to about a par of 59.98617.

I'm well aware that course is only 13 holes, but I'm either too tired after 13 holes or I stop counting once I make my 12.


Dan King
Quote
Round numbers are always false.
 --Samuel Johnson

Brent Hutto

Re:Ideal Personal Par
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2005, 02:13:35 PM »
I'll take one hole that is 4.213

That's all well and good, Dan, but the real question is would you change the way you play that hole if next year they round it off to 4.2?

Sean_A

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Re:Ideal Personal Par
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2005, 02:27:03 PM »
Dan

When it comes to taxes or quoting for business, I am with you 100%.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Matthew MacKay

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Re:Ideal Personal Par
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2005, 02:32:53 PM »
A par 12 might make for damn interesting hole.  Why not?  I'd rather play a 9 holes of par 72 than 18 holes of par 72.  Less putting would be an improvement on the game, IMHO.