The Psychology of the Green Fee

[Jim Johnson]

Alright, Pete Buczkowski has politely urged me to start a thread regarding...the psychology of the green fee.
With a green fee of, say, $300.00...at "Golf Course X" (we'll let you decide where you want it to be) and assuming that you've never paid anything like this before, at least for a round of golf...
do you anticipate playing a golf course which you will be able to recall with vivid memory each and every one of the holes?
do you anticipate stepping off the 18th hole, and although slightly smug after shooting perhaps the worst round of the year, revell in the fact that you got to play "this course"? (whatever course you envision, again, I'll leave that up to you).
do you anticipate being perhaps slightly disappointed, perhaps expecting just a little too much, because of paying such a high green fee?
do you expect, perhaps demand, that playing conditions be perhaps the best you have ever played on?
do you expect to see strategic elements on this course, that you just have not found on any other course to date?
what do you expect?
JJ

[Joe Hancock]

What do the psychologists say about me because I refused to fork over the $300 x 2 when my wife and I visited Monterey?

Joe

[Mike_Sweeney]

I have skipped Harbor Town and Pinehurst # 2 because they seemed expensive versus value. I paid for Pebble and felt good about it. I used to play Bethpage often, and now I have yet to play the full 18 holes due to the increased demand post restoration, as it is impossible to get an early tee time. But the worst place is Disney. They sell the hell out of their PGA courses and jam you onto these Joe Lee pieces of @$%# for more than Bandon !

Hey wait a minute. Pete don't you work for Disney ??

It is a market, and as consumers we get to choose. Personally, I want to head back overseas this summer to play the cheaper originals.

[Pete Buczkowski]

What do the psychologists say about me because I refused to fork over the $300 x 2 when my wife and I visited Monterey?

Joe

Depends on the psychologist...some would say you're crazy, others smart.  

JJ - this really is a banner week for me.  First I get to play with Mike Sweeney in his home climate.  Then Tom Paul posts on a thread that I started.  Then I get a term named after me, and you start this thread.  What did my buddy Evan F. say last year?  "I'm somebody now...Things are going to start happening for me!"  

For me, it was Pinehurst #2.  I spent 5 years walking the course before I played it.  Paid $250+caddie for the room & round, double that since the wife played too.  I was a bit nervous the night before but very calm on the actual round.  Have to say I never paid more attention to every shot I played and the surroundings - I played pretty well for me and am really glad I took the "plunge".  

On the flip side, I've enjoyed numerous rounds at Mid Pines & Southern Pines, always thinking I got an extra special gift due to the low fees (MP on specials).  Call it the cheapie in me.  

Pete

[Pete Buczkowski]

I have skipped Harbor Town and Pinehurst # 2 because they seemed expensive versus value. I paid for Pebble and felt good about it. I used to play Bethpage often, and now I have yet to play the full 18 holes due to the increased demand post restoration, as it is impossible to get an early tee time. But the worst place is Disney. They sell the hell out of their PGA courses and jam you onto these Joe Lee pieces of @$%# for more than Bandon !

Hey wait a minute. Pete don't you work for Disney ??

Darn it Mike!  I know we've had this chat but let's at least keep the illusion that Disney pays a salary.    They sure should considering what they charge to play their courses - no doubt I agree with you there!  Of course the cure for that disease is to give me a call.  

[Eamon Lynch]

Most folks on this board who are prepared to shell out $300 to play a course would have a keen interest in the design merits, but the expectations that accompany green fees aren't strictly architectural. I've come across people who opt for spendy courses in hopes that the cost deters the masses so they won't be fighting for space. I suppose that theory might hold water if it's a lousy resort course that costs $300, but clearly not at someplace like Pebble. Anyway, no matter what course they choose there's always the rish of being paired with a family of equally affluent boors.

[Jfaspen]

For me to spend over 200$ on a green fee (something I have not yet done), it will be for a known quantity.

Although not exclusive.. we are talking

Sawgrass
Pinehurst 2
Pebble
Harbor Town
Kapalua

I still think at least some of the above are overcharging.

In another thread earlier this year, someone reported it was    3$$ to play pebble.  It was also reported the guest fee for CPC was $175.  

I am sure there are others, but those are the ones the immediately come to mind.

[Andy Doyle]

The cost of golf at courses that are (and are not) not "dream" courses has gotten absurd.  I have seen and dreamed about Pebble Beach most of my adult life, lived in California for 3 years, and visited Monterrey numerous times, and it was not until this last April that I finally shelled out the $395 (walked and carried my own bag) to play PBGL.  I played Pebble on a gorgeous, sunny, April Saturday and the one nagging thing that continues to bubble to the surface whenever I think about, or talk about, or am asked about the round is how much is cost.

Does the psychology of the green fee make a difference?  Damn right it does.  $500 for Shadow Creek?  $300 for #2?  I don't think so.  As much as I loved my day at Pebble Beach, it is tinged with just a little sadness, because I know (for me) at that price, it is likely the only time I'll play there (OK, maybe I'll take my 2 sons when they are old enought to underdstand and appreciate).

Andy

[A_Clay_Man]

I'd have no problem if they were truly green fees. But, sadly  semantics enters into it, and they are 18 hole fees.

I'd pay more for a chance to golf the day away, at a great course. Not just 18 holes

If the course is worthy of the fee, the money spent is inconsiquential and forgetable. While the golf course was memorable and priceless. That's the power they exercise at places like Pebble, Bandon, Pinehurst, etc.  It's the over-flexing of that power, that ruined golf, NOT THE BALL.

Even at the low end, courses not worth spit, are getting suckers for $35. The Jones Trail seems to be setting the price point, advertising the sheit out of their $40 fees.

[John Foley]

JJ,

I've spent in excess of $200 three times on a golf course. Once was Troon North (a complete waste of money-much better values in the desert), once was Cascata (architectural very dissapointing, but a fantastic experience) and once at Pinehurst #2 ( off season, got a stay & play deal and was well worth it).

I've decided not to play Harbor Town due to the price and a few others I'll avoid for the same reason. What is reasonable to me may be way over priced to you and visa-versa.

W/ a little effort to uncover them, there are some tremendous values and places to go to discover them.

BTW-The best way to spend $350 playing golf is 10 rounds at Wildhorse!!!

[A.G._Crockett]

Before I answer the rest of the questions, let me ask the big one first:

Would my wife ever find out what the round cost me?

[Sean Leary]

One interesting side note to this topic.  How much does a green fee weigh when on a trip and deciding where and where not to play, in terms of picking courses BECAUSE they are more expensive.

A few years ago up in Whistler, BC, after both a Nicklaus and RTJ Jr courses opened, there was a huge disparity in the demand to play the Nicklaus course versus the Jones course.  The pro told me that it was because the Nicklaus course was more expensive so everyone assumed it was better. Once the Jones course  raised prices to match with the Nicklaus, their demand went through the roof.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

What frustrates me most is that you pay the fee and then are either unwilling or unable to play again.  

Pebble Beach, Kiawah,TOC or any course deserves a look prior to actually "playing" the course.  So you pay your several hundred dollars to walk in a park and hit a ball.  Any nuance that would allow for truly placing shots is reserved for the next timeI shell out severalhundred $$$ and that does not happen often.

[Andy Doyle]

WH:

How true.  The first thing I wanted to do when I walked off the 18th at Pebble was to head back to the 1st tee and play it again.  Having gotten acquainted with the course the first time around, I felt like I could easily take 5 strokes off my score if I could play it again.  I quickly realized that if I wanted to stay married and solvent that a second round just wasn't going to happen (any time soon).

Andy

[Brian_Ewen]

Sean
And Carnoustie pride themselves in saying "The only Open Championship rota course that you can play for under 100 pounds" ! .

Brian

[TEPaul]

JJ;

What I always anticipate is how smart I feel to have refused to ever pay $300 to play a single round on any golf course!

[Tom_Doak]

As most of you know, those of us fortunate enough to work in the golf business are often allowed to play courses for free, but there are still plenty of courses where this is not the case ... particularly in Scotland where pretty much EVERYONE pays because of their egalitarian nature.  And that's a good thing.

A few years ago I took Jim Urbina to play at various courses around Scotland.  We arrived at St. Andrews without reservations, and didn't know if we would be able to play The Old Course at all, so we were quite surprised when we went up to the starter and were told we could play RIGHT THEN if we were ready.  Jim paid for our rounds while I went to grab the clubs.

As we went down the first fairway he did the currency conversion in his head and realized he was paying $140 [at that time] to play, and immediately he started to have negative feelings about the place.  To get it off his mind, I told him I'd play him for the green fee, which is by far the most money I've ever played for with one of my associates.  But it did get his mind off the money, and by the end of the day [even though we halved the match] Jim was completely enamored with The Old Course and would probably tell you today it was the best money he ever spent on golf.

Really, it is all about expectations and attitude.  You pay several hundred dollars to get on a plane and go see these places, and have no qualms about the price because that's what planes cost.  But in golf today there is a much wider range of prices, and some people are so value-conscious that they will never go and see if the more expensive courses are more enjoyable.  Indeed, some people are so money-conscious that there is NO WAY a course can be worth $100 or $300 to them; they are put off from any possibility of enjoying it before they tee it up.

[wsmorrison]

The psychology of the green fee works much the same as the psychology of the membership fee, wouldn't you say?  

If you worked out the cost per round over your lifetime including dues, fees, guests, etc for these high end clubs, it is so much more than $300 per round that it is simply ridiculous that people pay this kind of membership costs-even if they have the bucks- especially considering the quality of design for most of these ripoffs.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

What frustrates me most is that you pay the fee and then are either unwilling or unable to play again.  

Pebble Beach, Kiawah,TOC or any course deserves a look prior to actually "playing" the course.  So you pay your several hundred dollars to walk in a park and hit a ball.  Any nuance that would allow for truly placing shots is reserved for the next timeI shell out severalhundred $$$ and that does not happen often.

Replay rates on The Ocean Course is $100...  That's not too harsh for the course you get...  And, you can book your replay at the same time you book your round...

[Brent Hutto]

If my body had been up to it I would have sprung for the replay after my Ocean Course round. Unfortunately, I could sense that even another infusion of she-crab soup would have only generated enough ooomph for another nine holes and I couldn't justify 100 bucks (actually the pro shop quoted 95) for just nine. So I just came back and played the next morning for a getaway round on our way off the island, so to speak.

For me the biggest disadvantage of high greens fees is when they discourage me from getting in a full 36 holes. There's something in me that can't stand to walk away from a good golf course with daylight still available. And since I fall in love with almost every golf course I play it's easy to see why I play so many 36-hole days.

[THuckaby2]

A great friend of mine has a saying:

"you can't put a price tag on a good time."

Methinks this captures what shivas is driving at.  And he's right.  In the end, one's memories are worth more than his bank account balance.

Of course the downfall of this thinking is that not everyone has enough green pieces of paper to be able to have these great times AND pay the mortgage, fix the kids' teeth, pay the property taxes, car payment, etc.   If no sacrifices have to be made, then hell yes, forget the money and enjoy the experience.  BUT.. that's not the reality for most people.

My friend's last name is Scripps.  Perhaps you've heard of the family?

So yes, it is easy for him to say.  And dammit I do try to live that philosophy, and have had a lot of fun doing so, even as the relative pauper I am.  But if one is worried about paying the bills on the 15th, it's tough to just consider $395 as pieces of green paper, even while playing Pebble.

TH

[Pat Brockwell]

Shivas, you got it right.  By the way, green fees and gas prices haven't gone up, the silly green paper has gone down.