Are Heroic Shots Needed ? aka The Big Buczkowskies

[Mike_Sweeney]

I had the pleasure of playing with Pete Buczkowski over the holidays at Victoria Hills GC near Orlando, a Ron Garl design. Very nice course, probably a solid 5 on the Doak scale, and it has been talked about favorably here (however they did make us walk even when we offered to pay the normal rate, and we were the only two on the course on a cold morning when the walk could have kept us warm )

Near the end of the round, Pete and I were talking about the course, and he made a very insightful comment that the course was missing "Heroic Shots", and would not be able to jump to the "next level". He was right as there were no Buczkowskies that really made the golfer think and sweat. Probably no fault of Ron Garl as he built a course for a Florida housing type of membership/patron.

So the question is how many Buczkowskies does a course need, if any, to make it to the elite status of Doak Scale 7+?

[THuckaby2]

This is a great question and I love the new golf term.  

My feeling is that it can depend on how huge the Buczkowskies are.  By that I mean, Cypress Point has the Buczkowski to end all Buczkowskis at #16, so that alone would meet the Buczkowski quota.  Of course Cypress does have others, but the point is #16 is all that is NEEDED to meet the Buczkowski minimum.

If one has more normal run of the mill Buczkowskies, then I think at least 2 or 3 are required... I really do think a big part of the thrill of this game is pulling off heroic shots.

But of course this issue has been debated on here before.  And there always will be exceptions... I'm sure there are great courses that don't have many, or any, Buczkowskies though I can't think of any off-hand.

And you sure as heck can go overboard - too many Buczkowskies makes for a depressing day.

TH

[A.G._Crockett]

I, too, have had the pleasure of playing golf with Pete B., so I'll hazard an opinion:

At least one (and preferably more) of the par fives ought to have heroic options, aka. a Buczkowski.  This could mean a tee shot option that would allow, if successfully executed, going for the green in two, or an approach shot that allows an eagle/double bogey swing.  (Pete, the tee shot on 17 at Finley must be one that you love; IMHO it makes that hole great.)

Several par fours should have heroism options off the tee, with possible pin positions for heroic approaches as well.

On par threes, the Buczkowskies should deal only with going for the flag, NOT in hitting the green.

[Pete Buczkowski]

I am sitting at my desk, blushing away at the title of this thread, even more than if somebody was standing over my shoulder and a naughty popup window came up.    

For reference, my initial comment was comparing Vickie Hills to WWPB, which are quite similar except WWPB has some really cool risk/reward holes.  There just wasn't a really thrilling shot on Victoria Hills, though I guess that approach to 9 must have some pucker effect if our match was any indicator!

I hate the term "signature hole", but it sure is nice to have a couple of shots that are different from all the others, where a perfectly executed shot gives you quite a thrill.  This could even be a really delicate chip shot - hell I felt that way during nearly every pitch around PH #2.  

Huck,

Your post is making my head swim!  No way should my name be used more than twice in a single post - don't your hands hurt now?!  BTW Mr. Sweeney did take care to not injure me during our match, though he was thinking about it for all the Disney pain he was about to endure.  

AG,

You're darn right about Finley 17, but I would also include the approach.  That's where we can expand the definition to include shots that are the definitely the wrong strategic option but way more fun to play.  Think about approaching a right pin on 17 by playing up the left fairway by hitting a low running pitch up the left side of the green, watching it disappear down the 6 foot hill, to see it appear near the flag 10 seconds later.  

[Pete Buczkowski]

Did we mention they wouldn't let us walk, even though we were the only 2 there in that nasty weather...since it was before 2:00?  

[pdrake]

that would automatically make it a negative on the Doak scale.......how dare a club not let you walk!

[Mike_Cirba]

How many Buczkowski's does Pinehurst #2 have?  How about Hidden Creek?

I'd venture to say that every approach shot at Pine Valley is Buczkowski-laden.    

[THuckaby2]

Pete, this would be simpler - but not nearly as much fun - if Daryl "Blue Guy" Boe had made this observation.

But the term is YOURS!

And Mike brings up two courses that would seem to be Buczkowski-less.  But still it would have to be a rare course indeed that can be great sans-Buczkowski.

Hmmm... maybe Winged Foot West qualifies?  I can't think of many true Buczkowskis on that great course... the greatness there comes in the relentless toughness combined with brilliant greens... but there are no real Buczkowskis, methinks.

All other great courses that are coming to mind for me each seem to have at least 2 or 3 Buczkowskis.  And that remains to me a good thing.

TH

[Bill Gayne]

I wouldn't expect Victoria Hills to having anything in the way of requiring herioc or forced shots. It's an Arvida housing community in Central Florida (DeLand). This means lots of retired folks who just want to get around easily and socialize on the cart.

Given the setting, the course was better than I expected. The bunkering was more complex than the typical Florida housing community course. The course was also a little longer than you would expect out of an Arvida course in central Florida. I've played courses done by Ron Garl in Naples and Myrtle Beach and this is by far the best work that I've seen from him.

[Pete Buczkowski]

How many Buczkowski's does Pinehurst #2 have?  How about Hidden Creek?

I'd venture to say that every approach shot at Pine Valley is Buczkowski-laden.    

Mike,

You may very well be right about PV, but I'll let others chime in about that one.  

I haven't had the pleasure of playing Hidden Creek, but Pinehurst does have some examples, at least by my definition.  

I don't think any of the par 4 or 5 tee shots qualify.  However, the iron shots into 2, 3, 5, 9 (especially with a left pin), and 15 immediately come to mind.  Depending on pin location I could add 7 and 12.  And better yet, many chips or pitches might be heroic.  Each of: right of 2 green, behind 8 green, left of 12 green, or behind 15 green, just to name 4, will give you quite a thrill.  But for me just about any pitch/chip that I can run up to the hole through interesting terrain would qualify.

And I agree with Bill that VH is a fine course and serves its purpose quite well.  And it certainly is the best offering I've played from Ron Garl.  I just can't imagine the place ever holding a GCA outing, where World Woods probably could.  

This really is closely related to Mark Rowlinson's thread, but my defn might be a bit more relaxed.

Huck,

I was going to mention WFW #10 but I deleted it from my initial post.    And I did notice you used my name less in your last post - thanks.

Pete

[Andy Doyle]

I wouldn't say that Victoria Hills is completely devoid of Buskz ... Buzck .... heroic shots.

The one that I can think of would be the tee shot on the par 5 sixth.  The safe route is over the short part of the lake to the right of the big trees.  If you can't draw the ball really well off the tee, it's difficult to hit a drive far enough (without going long into the brush-covered humps) to be in a position to reach the green in two.

You can cut off quite a bit of the dogleg by driving the ball down the long end of the lake to the left of the trees, but you have to get it over the lake and thread it between the trees on the right and the next pond down the fairway on the left.  It's a risky drive, but if carried off, puts you in a much better position to go for the green.

I liked this course a lot.  Didn't like the long green-to-tee cart rides on many holes.

Andy

[Pete Buczkowski]

I wouldn't say that Victoria Hills is completely devoid of Buskz ... Buzck .... heroic shots.

The one that I can think of would be the tee shot on the par 5 sixth.  The safe route is over the short part of the lake to the right of the big trees.  If you can't draw the ball really well off the tee, it's difficult to hit a drive far enough (without going long into the brush-covered humps) to be in a position to reach the green in two.

You can cut off quite a bit of the dogleg by driving the ball down the long end of the lake to the left of the trees, but you have to get it over the lake and thread it between the trees on the right and the next pond down the fairway on the left.  It's a risky drive, but if carried off, puts you in a much better position to go for the green.

I liked this course a lot.  Didn't like the long green-to-tee cart rides on many holes.

Andy

Andy,

You must be longer than Mike & I.  We both hit pretty good drives there (if I recall Mike got me by a yard) in the center, though it was really cold & wet so that dimished their distance.  Plus it was into the wind so it was not reachable for us.  I guess I could see this being a heroic hole but certainly not into the breeze for us short hitters.  BTW the 5th might qualify as well, on this day we had sizeable second shots though so it was more a matter of clearing that lake!

Pete

[Andy Doyle]

Pete:

I'm not terribly long, but the first time I played this hole (from the Captain/Gold/6495 tees), I hit my drive straightaway, and it ran through the fairway into the humps/junk).  I had to punch out, then lay up, etc, etc, etc - I think I made double.  So the next time I played VH (by myself, teed off at 7:30 am, and yes, they made me ride too) I decided to play the risky shot left of the trees.  I think the way the lake protrudes into the distance is a bit of an illusion - I didn't hit that great of a drive, but it still cleared the lake and left me yardage to attempt to reach the green in two.  Of course, I hooked my 3w into the pond and made bogey, but that's better than double, right?

Andy

[Scott_Burroughs]

I don't know about having too many Buczkowskis on a course, but this Pete guy seems get around!  

[RJ_Daley]

I don't know... it seems to me that a golf course without a couple of Big Buczkowskies is like a 4 minute program without a couple of triple Lutz's...

Cripes, I knew this guy when he was just another Cuscowillawhacker...

[Doug Siebert]

Where are the Buczkowskies on TOC?  Other than perhaps hitting over Hell for shorter hitters (or long hitters into a big wind) I don't see any heroic carries.

[Pete Buczkowski]

Where are the Buczkowskies on TOC?  Other than perhaps hitting over Hell for shorter hitters (or long hitters into a big wind) I don't see any heroic carries.

Doug,

It doesn't have to be heroic carries...just heroic shots or shot values.  I haven't played TOC, but from what I have seen you could include tee shot on 1, definitely the Eden, Road Hole (both shots), and the pitch to 18 by running it through the Valley of Sin.

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