Need Advice: Maine Golf Trip

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Every year my Dad and I try to take a golf trip and this year we decided our destination is Maine...

The current itinerary has us visiting 5 courses (4 in ME, 1 in NH):

Balsams - Panorama (Dixville Notch, NH)
Sugarloaf
Sunday River (new RTJ design opening officially in '05)
Belgrade Lakes
Prouts Neck (staying at Black Point Inn)

Others were considered (Cape Arundel, Kebo Valley, Samoset, Ledges, Penobscot Valley, amongst others) but were left out for a variety of reasons (design quality, logistics, etc.).

Are there any glaring omissions that should be considered in the area?  Any tips or thoughts about any on the list?  Any advice would be greatly appreciated, particularly about the merits of Samoset or Cape Arundel vs. Prouts Neck.  I wanted at least one coastal course, and Prouts Neck seemed to be the best option (quality/location).

Regarding the inland courses, I love mountain golf and I have always wanted to play Sugarloaf and the Panorama Course.  I figured we might as well play Sunday River and Belgrade Lakes (which has gotten some great reviews) while we were up there.

[DTaylor18]

Geoffrey, these lists can always be debated, partly due to personal preference, but you've got as solid a list as any.  I have heard that Prouts Neck is wonderful, and it certainly sounds better than Samoset which has great views with good but not great golf.  Not sure exactly where you are starting or finishing, but i would also recommend Portsmouth CC in Portsmouth, New Hamshipre.  It was my favorite course form that state.  good golf and great views.  Kebo Valley is wonderful well, definitely somoe quirky holes, but very memorable.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Dan,

Thanks for your thoughts.  We are flying in and out of Portland, ME.  Our plan is to drive to the Balsams on Day 1 (approx. 3 hours) and then work our way back East and South to the coast.

Samoset definitely has a love it or hate it following... why?  In addition, I have heard conflicting reports about Prouts Neck - is it 9 holes or 18?

[Matt_Ward]

Geoffrey:

Without being insulting -- but why Maine ?

The courses there are OK but there's precious little I have ever played that merits going there. I liked Sugarloaf in Carabassett Valley but for all the hype I've played better in my own "neck of the woods." Everyone raves about the drop-shot par-3 11th but I've been there twice and the turf is generally way too soft and the holes -- minus a few exceptions -- are not exceptional given all the hype.

The season is way too short -- the turf conditions are generally spotty with the few private club exceptions.

Belgrade Lakes is nothing more than dealing with rocks and more rocks -- vastly overrated IMHO. Samoset is what Dan described.

The Balsams is in New Hampshire and is the only course worth a play -- the Panorama layout is well done.

Enjoy your time with your Dad, but frankly there's other options involving New England that will certainly advance the golf equation beyond what exists in Maine.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Best advice - wait 6 months before you go!  

[DTaylor18]

New England truly is wonderful in the summer and fall.  Fall foliage is stunning.  Maine may not be the best golf in the country, but there are some great old courses and it is certainly a greatp alce to be weather wise and "feel" wise.  If your number one priority is golf, Matt might have a point, but for a great trip like the one you have, it sounds liek a great road trip that shouldn't have to deal with a lot of the "big city" hassles.

I don't know much about Prout's Neck, perhaps Mr. Moore can chime in with more on that course.  He is the Maine expert.

As for Samoset, it is stunningly beautiful, great for a trip with your wife.  But the golf holes aren't so good.  Felt like they were jsut put in along the water to capitalize on the views, there are few really good holes though.  They did some work on the ocurse and the 18th is much improved, but there are way too many weak holes for it be anything other than a good course.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Matt,

Valid question, considering the effort it takes to get to some of the places I mentioned.  I guess I have always been curious about playing Sugarloaf and the Panorama courses because of their remote location, great views, well known designers and their ranking amongst the other top courses open to the public.

Living in the Philadelphia region, I have played most of the well known courses from New York to DC.  However, my Dad has had a house in the Adirondacks for many years and loves being in mountains.  Our first trip into the Northeast last year (Sagamore & Taconic) went over very well and I thought another trip to New England was in order.

I considered Vermont (Equinox, Ekwanok), Lower NH & Crumpin Fox, and Rhode Island in addition to Maine.  Rhode Island dropped off because I really wanted to play mountain courses (it certainly wasn't the quality!) and Maine just seemed to offer the most between the remaining options.  One can play scenic mountain courses one day and a seaside routing in the same trip.

If you guys think that Maine should play second fiddle to other trips in NE, let me know...

[Bob_Huntley]

Michael Moore is the oracle to consult when requiring information on things golfing in Maine.

We were on a launch trip to Maine last August. We played Boothbay and Samoset twice and Kebo Valley once. The latter was the pick of the three. I am not sure I would travel a great distance to play them again.

[Matt_Ward]

Geoffrey:

If you should venture back to the immediate Albany area try to include Saratoga National by Roger Rulewich -- a superb public course beyond even what he did at Ballyowen in New Jersey -- the course clearly deserves its high state public rating from GolfWeek. If you can gain access there's nothing finer than Olde Kinderhook -- just south of the capital city -- because it's arguably the best Rees Jones designed course and far from the "usual" Rees Jones courses that many rightfully crucify on this site. OK can make a solid case for being among the top ten in the Empire State.

I would certainly recommend trying lower New Hampshire and it's close connection to that part of Massachusetts which gives you the opportunity to play Crumpin-Fox in Bernardston. Another first rate effort by Rulewich and definitely worth a play. One of the real neat towns to visit in southern Vermont is Bennington and its unique college and town atmosphere.

You've been to Taconic and that's nicely done as well.

On the New Hampshire side you have the likes of Portsmouth C.C., Bretwood Golf Club / North, in Keene and Shattuck Golf Course in Jaffrey, to name just a few.

If you should venture to the far northern area of New Hampshire I would also suggest heading over to Burlington and playing Vermont National -- it's a Nicklaus design and quite good given the limited alternatives for quality golf in New England. The course is just over 7,000 yards with CR of 74.2 / Slope 133.

Maine is a wonderful place for lobsters and moose sightings -- the golf, on the other hand -- is really not worth all the time and effort you'll spend treking to go to and from plenty of middle-of-the-road layouts at best IMHO.

Either way -- you're with your Dad and I'm sure you'll enjoy yourself.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Bob - I am anxiously awaiting Mr. Moore's comments as well.

Matt - Based upon the advice of this board and others we did integrate Saratoga National into our trip last year.  I thought it was a very nice high-end daily fee course but I would be quite disappointed if the experience at Sugarloaf is on par with SN.  If that's the case, it definitely is not worth the trip.  I had SN as a close third on our trip last year with The Sagamore ahead of it (quality design, conditioning could be improved) and Taconic as the clear front-runner of the three.  We enjoyed Taconic so much that we are taking another day-trip up there this year to give it another go!

Out of the other options, lower NH and Crumpin Fox would be my next choice.  I'll wait to hear from Mr. Moore, but maybe I'll put together a contingency plan for that destination.

[JNC Lyon]

Canterbury Woods, Canterbury, NH.
Good new Ross Forbes layout in Central NH, with a variety of holes and strategies. It is easily walked and is fairly cheap ($35).

[Matt_Ward]

Geoffrey:

We agree to disagree / re: Saratoga National versus The Sagamore. The Donald Ross layout needs some serious attention to the continuous drainage problems on the front side before the 7th hole.

I think you're seriously underrating the efforts Rulewich handled with all the wetlands at SN -- although I do admit it's way too overpriced given the location and short length of the season.

The thing to remember is that the vast number of New England layouts are simply designs that feature golf as an alternative recreational component -- they rarely possess the kind of details that say "wow" when you enter the grounds. Given the short season I can understand the hesitation in developing any such golf because the clear winners are really located much closer to the coastline.

FYI -- Crumpin Fox is well done by Rulewich but given your thumbs down estimation of SN you may find that disappointing as well.

[Sean Leary]

I would recommend if you do the Maine/NH trip, you do it in the fall when the leaves are turning.  It really is quite spectacular.  If you are going in the summer, have you considered Cape Cod/Plymouth?

[DTaylor18]

Geoffrey, Matt is right, you would be very disspointed with Crumpin Fox.  I have always felt that it is a pretty, but repetitive golf course.  you find yourself hitting a lot of the same shots.  i have always felt that it was a little over rated for the area.  Taconic is much better in my opinion, not even close.  Also, if you're considering a day trip to Taconic, you can't skip the Orchards which is also in that general area.  I like it better htan Taconic, but i am biased.

If you do decide to do Southern NH, which really isn't necessary based on your original itinerarry, Portsmouth CC is the clear best option.

Don't even think about Cape Cod unless you are specifically going there, it's a nightmarish drive and nowhere near where you're going.  There is wonderful golf there too though if you decided to visit.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Matt,

When I said, "I would be quite disappointed if the experience at Sugarloaf is on par with SN", it was not intended as a slight to SN but rather emphasizes just how difficult and expensive it is to get to Sugarloaf.  I actually liked SN, and I agree that Rulewich did a masterful job routing the course given the environmental constraints he had to work with.  My only ill will for the course has to do with hitting my tee shot into the wetlands on #18 when I was 1 up on my Dad at the time... My only point is that if I wanted a nice, high-end daily fee without spectacular views I could find that in any number of places (including SN) that were much easier to get to than Sugarloaf, ME.

I also agree with you on the drainage issue at The Sagamore.  If they could ever have that place running firm and fast, and maybe add a little length it could be phenomenal.  As it stands now, I still think one can see the merits of the design.

Dan - The Orchards is an interesting idea, is it open for public play? (I know Mount Holyoke owns the course)

[Matt_Ward]

Geoffrey:

One of the things that amazes me on this site is how people will give leeway to a "classic" course even when nothing of real substance has been done (see The Sagamore as an example.

Without trying to pile on but when people say "if" they do this and "if" they do that then the course would be somehting. What's really not said is how poor things are and need to be said.

The Sagamore has had drainage issues on the front side for a number of years. The fairway for the 6th is one step removed from having the same "dryness" as the streets in Venice at high tide.

Facilities that are unable / unwilling to make necessary upgrades to what is there should not receive any benefit of the doubt particularly after a period of time has gone by.

Saratoga National is vastly underrated by many and as I said before a tip of the hat to GolfWeek for placing the course so high among the public courses in the Empire State.

There are many here on GCA who don't view Roger Rulewich with really any respect. I believe his work at SN is well done --even beyond what he did at Ballyowen in NJ which I consider the state's top public layout.

Dan:

We don't see eye-to-eye on Crumpin Fox. Let me know what other Mass public courses surpass it? Please don't tell me one of those fluff-ball overly-manicured Cape Cod courses? If I had to mention a candidate I would add Shaker Hills in Harvard, MA -- a solid Brian Silva layout that gets little attention.

Look at the range of shots you play at Crumpin-Fox. The holes have enough movement to force the player to properly "work the ball" in a range of situations. I also believe the long par-5 8th is a gem of hole and frankly is vastly underrated by many.

[Dan_Callahan]

Possibly the best golf in New England right now can be found in southeastern Mass. A number of very fun courses in Plymouth (Waverly Oaks, Pine Hills, etc.), Granite Links in Quincy (getting good reviews—I haven't played it yet), and Blackstone National in Sutton. You are also only an hour or so from Newport National in Rhode Island—the best of the bunch.

Don't get me wrong, I love many of the Maine courses you have mentioned. Belgrade Lakes is kind of odd with the boulders lining some of the fairways, but it is fun and very forgiving. But Maine is a HUGE state, and the drive from one course to the next can be extreme. Also, don't think that because it is Maine it will somehow be deserted. Traffic  on 95 and Rte. 1 in the summer is as brutal as Cape traffic on a Friday afternoon.

If you are really ambitious, head to the Cape midweek and play Highland Links in Truro—an unforgettable experience (but another traffic-plagued drive).

Also, I have to disagree about Crumpin-Fox. It's a great course and certainly one of the best in the region. The only weak hole on the course is 16, which isn't terrible but I am not a fan of right-angle doglegs. The problem is that there aren't many other good courses in the area if you are looking to maximize your trip. Southeastern Mass gives you many more options.

[DTaylor18]

Matt, i think we see a lot of the same at Crumpin Fox, just with a different result.  Crumpin Fox is one of the better public courses in MA, but i think the overall quality of public ocurses in the state is not that great, although it has improved dramatically in the last 10 years or so.  MA is blessed with wonderful old courses that are some of my favorites anywhere, but unfortunately most of them are private.

As for Crumpin, the course is challenging no doubt.  There are some great holes, such as #8 as you mentioned.  However, would i travel a great distance to play there, no?  If i lived within an hour, it would be a great option, but that's it.  It felt liek there were too many holes with long forced  carries to uphill greens, where i had the same length in on each shot.  If you weren't comfortable with a long iron aproach to a lot of the greens, you were in for a long day.  I like the course, i jsut wouldn't send anyone from out of state there.

You ask a valid question as to others i liked more.  Well, I like Kettle Brook better, I like Shaker Hills better, The Ranch, and maybe Wachussett (huge potential with better maintenance and less play) and Cross Winds.  I would put it on par with Waverly Oaks and Pinehills - Jones course, and just ahead of Blackstone National and Atlantic.  You are right, it is one of the better public courses in MA, but i would send few people traveling in from far away to any of these to be honest with you.    

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

Agreed -- with the quality of public golf in the Garden State I would just as soon recommend coming to Jersey and playing a much wider array of courses.

[Michael Moore]

I am on autoprobation right now because I have become too reactive, mouthy, and wrong. For example, this a decent thread but all I can see are the lies. Walsh will get his counsel offline. Good evening.

[Dan Kelly]

I am on autoprobation right now because I have become too reactive, mouthy, and wrong. For example, this a decent thread but all I can see are the lies. Walsh will get his counsel offline. Good evening.

Say what?

-----------

I like Maine. I recommend Kebo Valley.

[henrye]

I was in Maine last year and only visited a few courses on your list - Belgrade, Samoset, Balsams, Sugarloaf.  Of those courses, Samoset was my favourite - it had some good holes and some weak ones.  The others were all too extreme in their elevation changes for me.  Belgrade is like a half dozen courses we have up here in Canada - it's just more hilly.  The view from the clubhouse at the Balsams was beautiful and the Lobster at dinner at Samoset was the best.  Enjoy your trip there this summer.  The area is visually stunning, the seafood is tops and the golf is fun - enjoy your trip.

[Dan Herrmann]

Here's an option for you.  Fly to PWM (Portland, ME) and head north on I-95.  When you get to Augusta, play Belgrade Lakes.  It was a Golf Digest 5-star for good reason - it's a charming, beautiful course with awesome ownership.  Perhaps the friendliest bunch of folks I've ever come across at a resort.  Plus the sounds of the loon as evening falls is unforgetable.

Now for the fun part.  Head up I-95 to Bangor and then go on ME-9 east into New Brunswick.  If you're really adventurous, continue on past St John and Moncton and into Nova Scotia and up to Cape Breton Island.  I think that Highlands Links is the best bang for the buck in North America, and you can see Thompson masterpiece - mountains and ocean!

Sure - it's a full day drive from Bangor up to Cape Breton, but it's a drive full of scenery, bald eagles, puffins, and wondeful people.

Then, on your way back, you can do Bell Bay, Crobush Cove on PEI, or a number of fine courses in New Brunswick.

And, you'll gain an hour when you cross the St. Croix river back into the USA and can hit Sugarloaf.

One suggestion - go after Father's day to avoid the no-see-ums.

(PS  - My wife and I drove from Philly to Cape Breton Island and had a wonderful time!)

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