[Mike_Young]

After reading the McGovern thread, I ask....can you guys tell which associate designed which course for the signature architects today.  I think it is obvious with several......how will that be viewed 50 years from now...

[Ron Kern]

Great question...

[Scott_Burroughs]

How about Toomey, Bell, Hunter, etc. vs. Flynn, Thomas, and MacKenzie?  

Or Raynor and Banks?

I shouldn't mention Burbeck.....

[BCrosby]

How will it be viewed 50 years from now?

People will be debating who did what. Much as we debate today about who did what among MacKenzie/Morcom/Russell in Australia or MacKenzie/Hollins/Hunter/Egan in California or MacKenzie/Maxwell in Michigan or MacKenzie/Jones in Georgia. Etc.

One difference, however, is that the role of associates and collaborators was openly acknowledged by people like MacKenzie and others.

That does not seem to be the case today. When the big boys get the big checks, owners don't want to hear that someone else is really doing the work. Which means that people will have to do a lot more detective work in 50 years to figure out who was doing the heavy lifting.

Bob

[wsmorrison]

Scott,

The Toomey and Flynn partnership was engineering and construction alone.  

Flynn was the only designer in the firm.  Lawrence, Gordon and Wilson all went on to pretty good design careers, but they did not do any design work while working for him.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Wayne,

That was nice of Flynn (or whomever) to put Toomey on the "marquee" with him as we often seem to see it today.  Maybe that's why Burbeck was so pissed off as Tillie's construction guy on the Black.  

When Raynor worked with/under CBMac, did he "evolve" from engineer to co-designer?  (for George Bahto).

[wsmorrison]

Scott,

Toomey was 12 years older than Flynn and I think the engineering/construction side of the business was run by Toomey.  The confusion of the general public lies in the distinction between the design and building of the golf courses.  Most of the routing drawings and all of the hole drawings have "William S. Flynn, Golf Architect."  Many of the routing maps also have "Constructed by Toomey and Flynn Contracting Engineers."

We've encountered evidence that Dick Wilson and Red Lawrence took credit for work they did not do, such as Shinnecock Hills (Wilson) and Indian Creek (Lawrence) many years after Flynn's death.

I know a bunch of other myths that will eventually be dispelled when a long awaited book is finally completed (well, long awaited by me anyway).

That's an interesting question that you pose to George.  I'd be interested in the answer to that one.  The drawings I have of Ross and McGovern are done as "Donald J. Ross, Golf Architect" with "J.B. McGovern, Associate."

[BCrosby]

I think Langford & Moreau advertised themselves as a firm but had a similar division of labor. Langford was the designer and Moreau was the engineer.

Bob

[TEPaul]

As far as I can tell Donald Ross never partnered or had a partner in actual design ever. I guess if you think about it he may've been one of the few top-flight designers of that era who never did. Obviously he felt it unnecessary and judging from the amount of projects he had I guess he was right.

In my opinion, the prmary roll of Toomey (an engineer) with Flynn was that firm was selling efficiency of product and cost efficiency too and an engineer along with detailed plans of what a client is going to get and pay for is a great way to do that.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
I've seen the same thing around here, plans that say 'Donald J Ross, golf architect' and 'Walter Hatch, associate' -- drawn I suspect by Hatch -- Springfield, Westbrook and Thendara (NY).

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom MacWood,

You suspect that the drawings are by Hatch. Wasn't Walter Irving Johnson the man responsible for most of Ross' drawn plans throughout the 1920s, and forward?

When were Springfield, Westbrook, and Thendara designed on paper? Just curious,

[T_MacWood]

Jeff
Johnson was responsible for most of those striking plans...his style is unmistakable. These are different. The Thendara plan is in 'Golf Never let Me Down' and it matches the hand in the drawings at Springfield and Westbrook.

I don't know if they were designs on paper or not. Springfield and Westbrook are both excellent designs that were very professionally constructed. I don't think Ross drew these plans...but then again Ross didn't draw any Walter Johnson's handiwork either.

[Mike_Young]

Johnson plans can always be told by a telltale #3 he had on his typewriter.

And....I don't know if you call unamed associates designers or not but let's assume that Tom Fazio is considered the designer of his courses.  Can you tell the difference between a Banfield and a Marzolf?  IMO, same goes for Ross.

[wsmorrison]

We are interested in telltale differences between courses under the construction supervision of Red Lawrence and by William Gordon.  The problem is, we only know that Lawrence supervised Indian Creek and Gordon Pocantico Hills and that both Gordon and Lawrence were at Boca Raton together (one on South and one on North?).  Toomey and Flynn had another guy, Paul E. Weiss that surpervised Springdale GC (Princeton) and Lehigh CC.  Weiss became Lehigh's first and longtime superintendent after the club opened.

Any ideas on construction differences?  I haven't been able to determine any as yet.  Maybe Ron Forse, Ron Prichard, John Chassard or others may be of help.

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