Indian Hill GC (Winnetka)

[Paul_Turner]

In American Golfer, this course is credited to Colt (and a chap called HH Barker), in 1913.  It's now credited to Ross.  Ross and Colt did work together in the area in 1913: see Old Elm

Anyone know the history?  What's it like?  Any good?

I don't have my books to hand, but I think this is the course shown in the parallel hole drawing in Shackelord's Golden Age book.

Ta

[Neil Regan]

Paul,

  I know nothing about Indian Hill, but it does appear in this comparison of green swards from 1923. (From this current thread )

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

I don't know about Indian Hill in Winnetka, and for some reaon, I thought that it was Flynn, but my memory is fuzzy.

As to Ross and Colt working together at Old Elm, Killian and Nugent did a few greens while I was employed there, and when working there, I heard that the club linterviewed both, and unable to decide, locked the two of them in a room until they came out with a joint routing.  Ross walked away after that.

Later, a spinoff group formed Shoreacres, and neither would have anything to do with them, and Raynor got the job after they declined.

The story on Bob O Link was a little different in that Ross supposedly had the routing done before WWI, and then had too many projects starting up after the war, and agreed to /arranged for or simply walked away when he had to much work, and Colt and Company did the actual construction.

Of course, given the scarcity of club records, those stories could have some, none or complete truthfulness about them.  I will leave it to historians to figure out.

[T_MacWood]

Paul
Believe it or not, this club is well aware of the heritiage, they list Ross, Colt and Barker as the architects of record. At the time Colt was working in Chicago (1913) Ross constructed a number of his designs, and I thought that was the Ross connection, but Ross listed this course as a redesign so I'm pretty sure he came back later and remodeled the course.

By the way Herbert Barker, who collaborated at IH with Colt, is one of the more under appreciated architects--he designed Mayfield, Rumson and CC of Virginia (Westhampton). He was fairly well known in Britain as fine amateur golfer who came to the US and became a professional. He was the pro at GCGC.

[Paul_Turner]

Thanks!

According to American Golfer, Ross and Colt also worked on Glen View in Illinois.  Redesign work regarding bunkers etc.  The snippet states that they both advised in the fall of 1913.  Which is probably wrong in terms of date.  I don't think Colt stayed in the US after the spring/summer of 1913 at PVGC.  But perhaps he did?

It appears that Glen View is now attributed to Flynn.

[wsmorrison]

Paul,

While Flynn left most of the routing intact, he did redesign the holes themselves.  A bit of his recommendations were not implemented.

The Flynn changes at Glen View Club were as follows:

Hole 1:
An alternate West tee and 2 fairway bunkers were added, a cross bunker reduced.  The green was enlarged and changed to a L to R slope.  Deep bunkers were added L and R greenside.
Hole 2:
Hole was shortened from 235 to 195.  Original green site is now a hollow in the 3rd fairway.  Green was moved closer and L onto higher ground with a large B to F slope surrounded by bunkers.
Hole 3:
Hole was lengthened from 390 to 435 by moving the teeing ground back creating an uphill blind tee shot.  The green was moved back to higher ground and sloped L to R.  2 bunkers 40 yards short L and R were added as well as 2 L greenside bunkers.
Hole 4:
Flynn moved the tee back to add 25 yards (370 to 395).  This created a semi-blind tee shot with an added bunker set into the hillside.  Green was enlarged with a gentle slope in the back and a long bunker R and 2 bunkers L.
Hole 5:
375y.  Fairway contour lines changed.  Crossbunker 60y short of green was removed.  Green was increased in size and shape (no longer square) with a front wrap around bunker and bunker L.
Hole 6:
548y.  L fairway bunkes were put in to create a "cape-type" tee shot.  "Hell's 1/2 acre" bunker 140y short of green was built.  Rectangular shape green was reshaped and reduced in size with a false front added.  Three greenside bunkers added.
Hole 7:
177y.  Cross bunker along with 2 hidden rear bunkers were removed.  Green shape changed and a knoll added in front.  Deep L and R bunkers reshaped.
Hole 8:
470y.  Double dog-leg.  Flynn added crossbunkers but they were later removed.  Green moved 30y L to accomodate a new tee for #9.  Green increased in size and made less rectangular.
Hole 9:
350y.  Flynn wanted to turn this into a par 3 of 150y with an island green surrounded by sand (conceptually like the longer 3rd at  Pine Valley and like 3rd at Kittansett).  Hole was subsequently changed.
Hole 10:
455y.  Fairway reshaped to create a slight dog-leg R.  Green moved 40y and R to a hillside.  Green reshaped and a bunker R built into hillside.
Hole 11:
Teeing ground moved to accomodate change to #10 green.  Flynn proposed moving the green along the river.  Green was expanded and reshaped with B to F slope and 3 deep bunkers surrounding.
Hole 12:
Tee moved back to increase length by 30y (295 to 325).  Flynn wanted to move the green towards the river, this was not done and green was enlarged and reshaped with deep R and L bunkers added greenside.
Hole 13:
535y.  2 R fairway bunkers added and green expanded and reshaped with increased B to F slope.
Hole 14:
169y.  Green expanded and sloped B to F, reshaped to kidney shape surrounded by bunkers.
Hole 15:
505y.  Flynn wanted to move the tee forward and move the fairway R along property line, reducing yardage to 433 and par from 5 to 4.  A dry ditch was filled and grassed.  Green was moved to the R 30y and with R and L bunkers added.  Green was later moved back and made into a double dog-leg.
Hole 16:
386y.  Flynn proposed moving tee and fairway to L to eliminate slight dog-leg R.  Dry ditch was filled and turfed.  R and L bunkers short of green were added.  Green made into a punchbowl type with 3 greenside bunkers L, Front, R added.
Hole 17:
340y.  Fairway bunker set into R hillside built, dry ditch filled.  Green moved 40y R up a hill.  Green steeply sloped R to L with 2 bunkers into hillside.
Hole 18:
340y.  Tee was moved R and back 30y.  Fairway was moved R to line up with new tees.  Green changed from the typical rectangular with 2 tiers sloping B to F with L, Front, and R bunkers added.

I'll post the Flynn design overlaying the existing course in a bit.

[wsmorrison]

Here's the Flynn redesign plan (black solid lines) overlaying the original course (black dotted lines)

[wsmorrison]

It appears that the dotted lines did not come out on the low resolution image that I posted.  The drawing is dated December 26, 1922.  Flynn's drawing style changed markedly  for the better in his later drawings.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
What was the architectural history and reputation of the Glen View course Flynn remodeled?

[wsmorrison]

Richard Leslie, head professional at Glen View from 1897 to 1901 worked with Simonds and Herbert J. Tweedie and is credited with laying out the orignal course.  Subsequent head professionals included Laurie Auchterlonie and Jock Hutchinson  (TEP-prior to his arrival at GV, Hutchinson worked for Andrew Carnegie at Fernandina Island, FL).  I never heard of any work by Ross or Colt at Glen View nor does anyone on the historical committee.  It is worth looking into.  Paul, can you email me or fax me (610.664.1918) the American Golfer article that connects Ross/Colt to Glen View?

The course was laid out in conjunction with a landscape architect of some renown, I don't recall his name but Tom Paul does.  When we were first there, he toured the grounds with a group there just to study the landscape design.

In "The Book of Sport" by Joseph E.G. Ryan there was a chapter called "Golf in the Middle West" where he writes of Glen View "Practically hewn out of primeval forest, its contou shows pleasing evidence of the landscape gardener's art--the course looks like a well laid out park."  Originally, there was a choice of two #9 holes, one if you wanted to play 9 and return to the cluhouse, one if you wanted to continue on for 18 holes.

Nothing was done to the course till Flynn came in 1922 to remodel the course.

Glen View held the 1902 National Amateur with Louis James (member) defeating Eben Byers 4 and 2.  Glen View was known for its long time association with Chick Evans (honorary member 1916) and the home of the Evans Scholars Foundation.

[T_MacWood]

Colt made a number of suggestion in 1913 at Glen View (Ross carried out the work), mostly new bunkers.

Early on Glen View was one of the premier courses in the country, and oviously one the top course in Chicago. The 18th hole over a diagonal pond was one of the more famous holes in the country.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Will you please send me any information you have on Glen View regarding Colt/Ross?  I'll get it to the club historian and make sure they are aware of your efforts. The pond on 18 is still a very good diagonal even though the distances today are so great.  I believe they are going to restore the shot value of the tee by putting in a tee further back and clear out some trees on the right.

[Doug Wright]

It's way overtreed, outdated, constricted, green-crept and generally a very average golf course.  Short, tight, monotonous and boring.  Lots of greens perched up on hills, but that's about the only interesting thing about the place.

Shivas, That's what I remember from when I last played it--25 years ago...

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Got to go along with Dave on this one.
I played it about 15 years ago almost every Monday in some money games..not really one of Chicago's best.
Dave..what do you think of Skokie?
I was based there for a summer before deciding to go back to school, and have some good friends who are members.
But please still speak freely.....as if I need to give you permission!

[erichunter]

Michael, I think Skokie is one of the best
damn golf courses around that isn't on
anybody's list of anything.  I consider it to be
 in the top 5 in Chicago, along with
Medinah, Shoreacres, Olympia Fields and Chicago Golf.  

Where do you place Rich Harvest?  Top 10-15?  I played in Oct and still not sure how it stacks among its neighbors (if you can call Eastern Iowa part of Chicagoland).  

Indian Hill is nothing of note.  I occasionally caddied there and the average age of members was deceased.  GlenView is much more interesting course and I have fond memories of sneaking on Mondays to play.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Dave,
I basically agree with you.
When I was there in 1988 there were too many trees, but when I returned last year that had been taken care of.
I think the course has some great par 4's that are very testing, and the par 3's are super.
It certainly is the kind of golf course you can plat everyday and not get tired of.
I always though it's place in the top 100 was deserved, but modern courses just keep coming along and impressing the raters.

[Buck Wolter]

Dave-
How does Glen View rank on the 'we need a 4th' scale?



Didn't it host an early 1900's Open as well?


Buck

[Brian_Gracely]

Wait a second there Schmidty, how many scales do you have?  Where does the "we need a 4th" scale rank vs. the recently conceived "how many beers?" scale?