would Minikahda improve ?

[mark chalfant]

If holes 15-17 (across the road) became holes 2-4.That way
the back nine would be a more interesting finish. Because some of the better land and holes that are both fun and challenging to play would  give Minikahda a more inspiring
finish. To me, the current strech of 9-13 has some of  the very best holes, with an adjusted configuration they would  become 12-16 and add character to this Ross course's currently  modest incoming strech. Thanks for any ideas.

[Doug Wright]

Mark,

An interesting idea, though there are only three holes (15 though 17) not four on the other side of the road. I'm sure one of the knee jerk reactions would be that the 9th hole would be a mile from the clubhouse (actually as far away as it possibly could be, ie the current 6th green) and the "halfway house" near the current 9th green (and the closest to the clubhouse except for 18) would be between 12 green and 13 tee.

Leaving that aside, the other logistics would work really well. I'd tend to agree that (a) the newer (and I'm assuming non-Ross) holes on the other side of the road which were necessitated by the loss of Ross holes to the highway don't really work well at all vis a vis the rest of the course (bland topography and out of character greensites on 15 and 17, for starters) and (b) the holes you describe (currently 10-14) are very good indeed. Playing what is now 14 as a long par 4 17th would be a good challenge late in a round.

One would think this came up during the discussions with Ron Prichard about the restoration. I'm having dinner with a Minikahda member this week and I'll ask his opinion.

[Dan Kelly]

One would think this came up during the discussions with Ron Prichard about the restoration. I'm having dinner with a Minikahda member this week and I'll ask his opinion.

Ask him, too, if you will, if the club has ever considered re-creating, insofar as that might be possible, the lost Ross holes.

[Doug Wright]

Dan,

Will do. For one thing I suspect the topography of the land didn't allow it--the land across the road is flat and boring, while as you know the rest of Minikahda (and the way Ross used it) is rolling with ridges and compelling land for golf.  

This question of Mark's got me wondering: Does it matter in theory? If you're playing the same 18 holes why does the order of the holes matter? Sure it's great to build to a conclusion, and I suspect one wouldn't want to have the 16th at CPC as the first hole, but where, as here, we're talking about holes where sit would be "nice" to get these blander holes out of the way (2-4 instead of 15-17) should we (or the architect) care?

[Dan Kelly]

For one thing I suspect the topography of the land didn't allow it--the land across the road is flat and boring, while as you know the rest of Minikahda (and the way Ross used it) is rolling with ridges and compelling land for golf.  

I'd guess Minikahda has enough money to CREATE Ross-suitable topography, if there were a will to do so.

[Doug Wright]

Dan,

Maybe so...

I was just looking at a course map. The 18th hole at Minikahda is a short, pretty weak par 4. What they really should do is move the green down about 50-75 yards to the edge of the lake (Calhoun?). Now that would "improve" Minikahda...

[Rick Shefchik]

Doug -- Funny you should mention CPC, since there's a course right around the corner that essential front-loads its best assets (Spyglass, not Pebble).

I believe people do consider Spyglass's routing to be its most noticeable drawback. For many other courses, there would probably be a difference of opinion on which stretch of holes is the best, and whether it would be worth it to mess with the routing to create a dramatic climax.

An outstanding course ought to have several combinations of holes that would make a great closing sequence. Having said that, it seems to me I spend a lot more time thinking about how I played the final hole when I'm driving away from a course than whether it deserved to be the 18th.

[Jason Topp]

I would flip the nines instead of change the holes across the street.  7-9 would be a great finish.

[Doug Wright]

Jason,

I'd agree that 9 is a terrific hole, but 7 and 8? Even with Ron Prichard's significant improvements, I find the par 3 8th hole out of character with the rest of the course (cf the par 3 3rd and 11th). Yes, it is a difficult long three par so if you were looking to increase the pucker factor late in the round it accomplishes that. The par 5 7th has a solid Ross green, but otherwise is undistinguished IMO.  

In any case, this reversing the nines could never happen as the current 10th hole is quite a ways from the clubhouse.

Best,

[Jason Topp]

For what it is worth, I still like my idea.  I haven't played there since the recent changes, but I have always liked the stretch from 7-9.  

On 7, in addition to the green, I like the choice on the tee shot of trying to be aggressive with a fade or hitting my normal Bert Blyleven out to the left and taking 3 shots to get to the green.

I'm interested in why you view 8 to be out of character and why that is a drawback?  It is a longer par three on a flat piece of ground.  The course already has an abundance of short iron shots to tight green sites.  While I agree that the others are better par threes, I think 8 is a good contrast.  

I like the finish of two par fives surrounding a tough par three.  I also like the idea of getting the holes across Excelsior over on the front nine.  

I also think that starting on 10 would actually be more convienient than the current set up, because it is close to  the range and chipping green.  As it is now, you cross the 18th fairway to get from the range to the 1st tee.  

The big downside in my view is that the best hole on the course would be the first (current 10th) and would be a very stern opening hole.

[mark chalfant]

Doug,Jason, Dan & Rick thanks for your replies.

Jason, I think flipping the current nines would make for a
nice finish because, as you mention 17-18 (now 8-9) would
make for a solid finish. I guess my reservation would be the
severity of the resulting starting sequence, especially for
novice or bogey golfers.These first four holes(now 10-13)
could be card wreckers. Even single digit players could
end up 2 or 3 over on this strech. Perhaps as important
four of the best holes at Minikahda, in terms of challenge,
scenery, and putting interest would be complete by the time
the golfer reaches the fifth tee. again thanks for your ideas
and Minikahda remains a very fine course regardless of its
configuration.

[Doug Wright]

I like Mark's idea better, both architectually and logistically. The current first tee is literally in the clubhouse and the first hole is a classic short par 4 opening hole. Why change that? Also I don't think the logistics of starting and finishing away from the clubhouse makes any sense in this instance.

PS I asked my member friend about Mark's idea. He didn't know whether they 'd considered this but would check. He also didn't have a view on the subject but only weenies like us here on GCA spend any bandwidth thinking about stuff like this.

[Dan Kelly]

The current first tee is literally in the clubhouse ...

You think the first tee at Merion can be nerve-racking, with soup spoons clinking in your ears?

Wait till you hit your opening shot at Minikahda -- out of the kitchen, through the dining room, and out the door.  

[Doug Wright]

Wait till you hit your opening shot at Minikahda -- out of the kitchen, through the dining room, and out the door.  

...nothing but net...