A Course With No Stakes

[John Kirk]

Speaking of selective posts, I'll try another new topic, and see if this interests the group.

Ballyneal Golf Club in Holyoke, CO is built on a large sand dune complex in a very remote location.  There is no water, and the property boundaries are away from the proposed course.  The clubhouse is set back from the course as well.  There's an excellent chance that there will be no red, yellow, or white stakes at Ballyneal.

Are there any other courses you can think of that have no stakes?  Sand Hills and Sutton Bay come to mind as possibilities, but I have not played them.

[TEPaul]

I don't know that I've ever seen a stake or a line at PVGC but that may just be because I've always been pretty straight! I don't think there are any though. I know there's no rakes on the golf course down there and there never have been. Even if you hit a ball right on #4 or left on #18 into the parking lot or up onto the roof of the clubhouse, for instance, I think you have to play the ball.

[ForkaB]

Tom

Are you telling us that if you hit it into the water at PV you have to go in and play it (or declare a lost ball,of course)? Wow!  I always knew that course was cool!

[TEPaul]

"Tom
Are you telling us that if you hit it into the water at PV you have to go in and play it (or declare a lost ball,of course)? Wow!"

Rich:

No, if you'll notice I didn't say that--you did. What I said is I don't believe there're any stakes or lines at PVGC. Please don't ask me how a golfer figures out whether his ball is lost in a water hazard or not! I'm going to let you anwer that one all by your little lonesome!  

[Ian Dalzell]

I am the Head Pro at Hidden Creek in New Jersey and we have no stakes on our course - no O.B., no water hazards!

[Marc Haring]

I think Swinley Forest once came into this catogory. Of course it is possible to have a course with no stakes but I think the main problem would be when one encounters a lie within a ditch or something that has no stakes but a bit of water in it. If that were the case a free drop would be obtained under the casual water rule?

[Mike_Cirba]

Ian;

Good point about Hidden Creek!

Too often I hear that "we had to dig a large irrigation pond so we decided to make it a dual hazard on our 9th and 18th holes.", as if the architect(s) had no choice in the matter.

[Tyler Kearns]

By my recollection, Sutton Bay does not have any stakes. The ninth green & tenth tees are situated in close proximity to the boundary line, but rather than stakes, an old fence exists to keep the cattle from roaming the property.

TK

[jeffwarne]

The Bridge

[Brian_Ewen]

Leaving myself wide open , I always thought water hazards didnt necessarily have to be staked .

I grew up with rule that if it was a water hazard that you couldnt drop behind , then it was lateral ? .

Brian

[ForkaB]

TE Paul, et. al.

I think that John K was looking for courses that had no actual hazard situations, not just the stakes that indicate them (excluding non-staked hazards, e.g. bunkers, of course).

My guess is that Swinley doesn't fit that description.  You can certainly hooked your opening drive onto railway tracks, and if they are in bounds, I would be surprised......

......which reminds me of an anedcote in Darwin's biography of Braid relating how JB lost an Open once by having to play his ball off the RR tracks on the 16th at TOC.  Maybe TOC fit John's description in ye olden golden days?

As for Hidden Creek, they sure must have hidden that creek well!

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba said:

"Too often I hear that "we had to dig a large irrigation pond so we decided to make it a dual hazard on our 9th and 18th holes.", as if the architect(s) had no choice in the matter."

MikeC:

That's a good point. One time I was walking around that site with Coore and a few others very early in the project and I noticed this rather large thing that seemed about to be a body of water. So I said to Coore--"So you're going to have some large water hazards on this course, huh?" and he said, "Don't worry we aren't going to put any holes anywhere near that thing!"

[TEPaul]

“TE Paul, et. al.
I think that John K was looking for courses that had no actual hazard situations, not just the stakes that indicate them (excluding non-staked hazards, e.g. bunkers, of course).”

Rich:

Maybe that’s what he meant but this is what he said;

“…..an excellent chance that there will be no red, yellow, or white stakes at Ballyneal.
Are there any other courses you can think of that have no stakes?”

[TEPaul]

"Leaving myself wide open , I always thought water hazards didnt necessarily have to be staked."

Brian Ewen:

They don't. Stakes and lines are a convenience to golfers. There's a decision that states how you determine the natural line of a water hazard if there're no stakes or lines to indicate it.

[John Kirk]

TEPaul, Rich,

Rich is correct in my intentions.  I mean that the course has no need for stakes.  No water hazards and no out of bounds.  My idea of the perfect golf course is one that challenges me without having to incur those penalties.  There will always be the occasional lost ball.

[Tony Petersen]

  From what I remember, Sand Hills has no stakes, OB, nor does it have a USGA rating/slope... What a grand experiment that lended itself to some of the finest golf to be found in the world!!!

[ForkaB]

TEPaul, Rich,

Rich is correct in my intentions.  I mean that the course has no need for stakes.  No water hazards and no out of bounds.  My idea of the perfect golf course is one that challenges me without having to incur those penalties.  There will always be the occasional lost ball.

Thanks, John

If Tom ever learned how to read he'd be dangerous!

PS--TEP, take a look at my signature to see the problems you can get into if you don't read posts carefully.

PPS--John, now that Tom is on this thread you have absolutely no chance of killing it!

[JohnV]

Leaving myself wide open , I always thought water hazards didnt necessarily have to be staked .

I grew up with rule that if it was a water hazard that you couldnt drop behind , then it was lateral ? .

Brian

Brian, you are correct, Decision 26/3 covers both parts of this.

"26/3 Unmarked Water Hazard
Q. An unmarked ditch on the left of a hole is in bounds, but the left hand margin is out of bounds.  Accordingly, it is impossible to drop behind the water hazard under Rule 26-1b.  A player's ball comes to rest in the ditch.  is the player restricted to playing the ball as it lies or proceeding under Rule 26-1a?
A. It is the responsibility of the Committee to definte accurately the margins of water hazards and lateral water hazards - see Rule 33-2a.  However, if the Committee has done so, the ditch is, by definition, a lateral water hazard and the player should be permitted to proceed under Rule 26-1c(i)."