Would Tobacco Road be more accepted by the golfing public if...

[Pete Buczkowski]

...it had tamer greens?  Ditto Tot Hill Farm.  That's where I usually hear the grumbling from non-GCA types - especially the shapes of the 7th, 9th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 17th.  Does anybody else think that there are too many very shallow greens on the back side?

[Brian_Gracely]

I don't think the greens have anything to do with the reasons some people don't like Tobacco Road......it's the blind shots and quirk.  Some people just can't deal with not seeing the landing areas.

Now I can understand those people that criticize the Par3s for being all the same length.

[Brad Klein]

I like a lot of Strantz's work, but I don't get the goofy opening tee shots I've now seen three times - Tobacco Road (blind defile), Stonehouse (fallaway landing area) and Royal New Kent (blind, massive dunes). No such problems at Caledonia, but still, there's got to be a better way to start. Also, Tobacco Road does have those impossibly thin-shelved greens - 13 and 15 being the worst offenders. It is so visually striking, so different, and just a little too "busy." It's an example of where 85% of what he was trying to do would have been a whole lot better than the 125% he ended up building in.

[Matt Kardash]

Just because I'm a pain in the ass, but what is wrong with "too busy"? That's like saying a david lynch movie is "too surreal and confusing". I happen to love david lynch movies  

[HamiltonBHearst]

In "amadeus" wasn't one of the complaints with Mozart's music that it had "too many notes"

[John Foley]

Loved the busy nature of Tobacco Road, the waste area's, the blind shots, the risk reward, the awesome swales in the greens. But the shallow greens sucked.

[A.G._Crockett]

To me, a very hard question simply because I can't really understand how ANYBODY, on this site or not, wouldn't love the place.  But, if I had to guess, I'll go with visual intimidation off the tees, rather than the size or depth of the greens as the reason that some don't accept the course fully.  Tot Hill and True Blue are much the same (with Caledonia as a notable exception).

The funny (and fun) thing is that the shots really aren't that hard, but they sure do look that way.  I would also hypothesize that how  a player's evaluation of TR would vary with how he played that day much, much more than with most courses.

[Phil_the_Author]

Hamilton,

Mozart was not appreciated by many in his time. Does this mean he only became great later on?  

By the way, his response in the movie was that there "are exactly as many notes as are required!"  

Some course designers might want to use that phrase inserting bunkers in the place of notes. I don't know if that would be true or not.  

[HamiltonBHearst]

What movie, this story was in the cinema?  I saw the play and it was delightful.

I wonder how many of the classic era greats were not considered that great way back when.

[Rob_Waldron]

A blind shot is only blind the first time you play it!

[A.G._Crockett]

HAm

The movie is very entertaining with  Tom Hulce as Mozart and F. Murray Abraham as the sublime Salieri.

I find the Mozart/Strantz analogy to be very appealing on an artistic level; I think his golf courses will endure and be appreciated long, long after some other, currently more prominent "composers" are diminished in the eyes of the public.

[George Pazin]

The shallow greens were probably the only thing I didn't particularly care for at TR. I thought it was the kind of feature that significantly overpenalizes the higher handicap golfer relative to the lower handicap golfer. Having said that, I loved playing the course and it was a relatively minor complaint. It simply means I would have to play the course more defensively than I would prefer.

I hope it doesn't negatively affect the success of the course - it was too much fun otherwise for this feature to dampen my enthusiasm for the course.

[Pete Buczkowski]

For me the heart of the matter is the really shallow greens at the end of blind shots (13&15)...that's where I see the most grumbles from my playing partners.  But there are others that are also really tough for the average joe...think 14 - a mid iron to a green probably 10 paces wide in spots with trouble all around.  Or 9, a blind, uphill, long shot to a green that is 3 times as long as it is wide.  It would be fine if the hazards around it weren't so penal.

As a disclaimer, I love the course...but I can certainly see these as barriers.  Some of these dramatic shots just don't have bail outs that can make it just too darn difficult for the average joe.

For me at Tot Hill there is just too much multi-tiering.
 
Pete

[Andy Hughes]

I like a lot of Strantz's work, but I don't get the goofy opening tee shots I've now seen three times - Tobacco Road (blind defile), Stonehouse (fallaway landing area) and Royal New Kent (blind, massive dunes).

Personally, I love the tee shot on one.  I find it thrilling. But it seems a tough way to start the round, and also just a touch too long for some in our group.  They just had no real chance to get past the hills (I know, I know, move up to the next set of tees, but still...).
At the risk of blaspheming on this site, I enjoyed Tobacco Road more than Mid-Pines which I had played the day before (and I say that as one who liked Mid-Pines quite a bit). But Tobacco Road is just so different, so attention-grabbing, offering so many different holes and looks. Every single hole required thought: where do I want this tee shot to go, where can I miss, what part of the green am I aiming for, and what kind of shot will get me there. For example, on #12, with the pin back left, do I hit a lowish draw and let it scamper to the back? I played that shot and when it worked out, it was the most enjoyable shot I hit of 5 days of golf. The 'problem' is that is just so hard to get around it without a blowup somewhere, especially for the higher handicappers in our group.  Someone mentioned 14, and that is correct. Hit the green or else-and it is intimidating to look at!

PS Hamilton, the movie was also called Amadeus, and I can't recommend it highly enough.  Redman is exactly right; Abraham was brilliant as Salieri.

[Bob_Huntley]

PS Hamilton, the movie was also called Amadeus, and I can't recommend it highly enough.  Redman is exactly right; Abraham was brilliant as Salieri.

Andy,

Yes, Abraham did win the Academy Award but Hulce's performance was equally as brilliant. That was the year there should have been joint holders. Comedy, or comedic parts of a complicated role are awfully hard to bring off.

Philip Young,

You wrote that Mozart was not appreciated in his lifetime. He was lionized from an early age but dominated by his father, Leopold. The segment of the population that were oft-times non appreciative of his talents were the Italian court composers and clerics. After all he was the Jimmy Hendrix of his day.

[Scott_Burroughs]

For those who don't know who Thomas Hulce is by name, you probably know him by face as Pinto (one of the two main character pledges) from Animal House.


Gonna have to disagree with Brad on the blindness of the openers at TR, SH, and RNK.

#1 at TR can be seen down the opening of your drive, I watched my tee shot roll all the way down to an iron into the gree.

#1 at SH is definitely not blind on the tee shot, it's the approach that is blind.

#1 has a big portion of the fairway (the right side) that can be seen from the tee.  If you choose to cut the corner some, then it's blind.  Very Irish-looking, that hole.

[T_MacWood]

I love the golf course, most of my friends don't like it. I don't think the greens should be changed or severity of some of the hazards or the blind shots...I like anything unnusual, I think the course might benefit from multiple plays...but even then a certain percentage will never like it.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

I described TR as golf on acid when I played it several years ago. I saw it has having several problems then and I understand some of them have been addressed.

#1 is not a comfortable tee shot but my biggest concern was that all of the drainage from like 100 yards in went through the middle of the putting surface.  Sorry but that is not good design from either a maintenance or playability point of view.  

Narrow greens are ok occasionally but not too often.  I do not remember the hole number but the par 4 downhill through the gravel mounds was simply ridiculous.  It is my understanding that this hole was softened some but I don't see how a blind green that falls away  is a good hole.  Just hit it into the bunker behind and play from there.  

All of that said, anyone in the area should play TR at least once.  If I am on my way by, I will stop and play it again.  I consider at least one requirement for a course being great to be the immediate desire to play it again and again.  I don't feel that about TR.  Think of the scary fun house at the carnival.  Its fun once but that doesn't mean I want to go right back and get the s...t scared again!