MS Outing @ National and a couple of Sebonack pics

[Mike_Sweeney]

Once again Matt Burrows hosted a MS charity golf outing at the National Golf Links of America.  Matt raises money for the National Multiple Sclerosis Society in the name of his Mother who has suffered with MS for over 12 years now. Matt also runs The Boston Marathon for the same cause, and Matt can be contacted at:

Matthew Burrows
burrowsmw@aol.com

Many thanks to Matt, Bill Salinetti and the Greens Chairman of National.

Year 2 for me at this outing started out colder, but ended up warmer and slightly less windy. While driving through Shinnecock in the morning, I started to think that maybe my wife was actually right for a change.  


This year the pre-gathering started in the slightly wind covered parking lot:
Chad from Renaissance, Matt Burrows, Chris from Renaissance, Noel Freeman, Geoffrey Childs, Uncle George Bahto, Bill Salinetti


Mike "Mayday" Malone and Tom Goutman made the trip from Philly to see The Alps green


The skies cleared and it warmed up on The Redan #4, and Mayday makes an impressive Dalyesqe turn:


Tom Goutman was still figuring out the wind behind the 18th green at National:


Mayday and Tom with some large smiles on 18 @ National


Mayday coming to grips with the fact that there ARE indeed wonderful non-Flynn greens:


Renaissance men Chad & Chris solicited Noel Freeman to dig some bunkers over at Sebonack with mixed results !


Noel Freeman, Chris from Renaissance and Geoffrey Childs


The post round lunch was again at GCA's un-official clubhouse in Southampton, The Publik House.
Friend of Matt, FOM, Bill Salinetti, FOM, Matt Burrows, Mike Sweeney, Noel Freeman, Tom Goutman, Chad, Geoffrey Childs, Mayday Malone, George Bahto, Chris


Sebonack from Alps #3 green


This must be a Nicklaus hole with all that earth moving ! Just kidding Tom, that is the clubhouse area from National 18 green.

[TEPaul]

Looks like a couple of mountains of topsoil trying to mimic some of Rees's former parallel mounding architecture to me!  
What do you call someone who's a member of both NGLA and Sebonack G.C? Thanks for the photos Mike. I'm glad I wasn't up there or this morning I'd be nursing some amputated fingers and toes! Hey, Mayday, do you think they should remove the bunker 25 yards short and right of the first green so the ball will bounce uphill off the downhill slope behind it better?

[mike_malone]

 Matt,
    Thanks for the chance to play a "treasure".

   TEPaul,

         I would not presume to change anything here.  But Sweeney said you and Pat Mucci discuss moving the tee back on #18.Why not just put some grass on top  of the stone wall entrance?
     We played "the Black" on Sunday.

[mike_malone]

 Hard to tell from that picture,but that was 6 layers of clothing.

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

I most certainly did not recommend putting a tee back on #18. I've been fighting that suggestion of Pat Mucci's tooth and nail for the last three years. Like you, I wouldn't change a single thing about NGLA from here on out with the exception of the second half of #9. That needs a bunker scheme to make it more interesting both strategically and otherwise and it even appears C.B. Macdonald may have dabbled with the idea!

Pat wants to add tee length to various holes at NGLA to return some of the original shot values. To me that's tampering with architecture that shouldn't be tampered with. All I'd do with NGLA is print up a couple of alternate scorecards and simply leave the architecture alone. Having just seen the course you can probably imagine how interesting it would be to accomodate a high level of golfer playing that course by offering them different scorecards as a par 72, 71 or even a par 70 without doing a single thing to the architecture of the course!

[TEPaul]

Have you ever seen a better redan than that one Mayday?

[mike_malone]

 TEPaul
     My brain was frozen most of the time. I had thought a uphill shot was a prerequisite for a redan?

     BTW we hit from 175 and that was my 3-wood.

[GeoffreyC]

NGLA is perfect and getting better   under the excellent care of Bill Salinetti.  I would not change a thing.  It remains my favorite place on earth for a game.

Thanks to Matt, Bill and the NGLA member(s) who allowed our crazy group out there.  It was actually much more comfortable to play (weather wise) this year then last. Being prepared with a chemical hand warmer helped! Matt should stick to his job and never be a travel agent as his customers would likely find a blizzard in the Carribean during summer.

Mayday-  Glad you got to play The Black as I suggested.  Please tell us your impressions.

[mike_malone]

 While I expected to see interesting undulations and wonderful green complexes I was most taken by the fairway width. Particularly on a day with a biting wind that width was fantastic. I think some were 100 yards!

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mayday,

Impressions of The Black, please.

[mike_malone]

 I could see why so much land was taken for Bethpage Black.They wanted to use as many high places as possible.

 The conditioning was outstanding for a public course.#2 was the first joy.(I left the card home so I go by memory). The first par five was a hole I wanted to see-loved it. Then the par four that followed.I really like fairways at an angle.The safe teeball is left,but that makes for the most difficult uphill shot to that green.Luckily,I only needed to try to hit my rescue club straight and it hooked.

    I had no problem with the tree on #8.Someday it will be gone but the hill will be an issue forever.

     When the land flattens out the course wanes. It is tough to make interesting holes on flattish land.

     But it closes with #15 and #17.-demanding.

       I imagine the uphill greens lack much interest because it is public. I played a course today in Delaware that is practically flat and its greens were much more interesting than BB.

        My visit there reinforces my view that classic parkland courses are prisoners of the land. They need interesting land to create fun shots.

  My bias is that my home course has the best land I have yet to see. Dr. Childs needs to play it again so he can compare it to Huntingdon Valley anew.

[Thomas_Brown]

Nothing like Nov. golf in NY!

[tomgoutman]

Mike Sweeney, thanks for posting those pictures. It was great spending the day with you, Mayday, and the other brave souls. National in any weather is wonderful. I echo Mayday's comments on Bethpage Black.  Again, thanks to all involved that permitted me the privilege of playing NGLA again.

[JakaB]

Not to risk another blackballing...but it seems to me that the views of Sebonack are going to put a bite into some of the charm and serenity of National....The clubhouse location seems a bit trite...

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Pat wants to add tee length to various holes at NGLA to return some of the original shot values. To me that's tampering with architecture that shouldn't be tampered with.

How do you reconcile the above statement in the context of Flynn's and Ross's theory on elasticity ?

Your concept of a static golf course would also seem to be at odds with Coore & Crenshaw's concept regarding tee length and the subsequent changes at Friar's Head.

You also seem to have made a wrong turn somewhere as you now appear to be in total agreement with Tom MacWood in that a golf course should never be altered, a position that you were diametrically opposed to since the day you begain posting.

I wonder what your opinion and Tom MacWood's opinion of Dick Wilson's work at # 18 at Seminole is ?

Maxwell's work at GMCC and PV ?   [/color]

All I'd do with NGLA is print up a couple of alternate scorecards and simply leave the architecture alone. Having just seen the course you can probably imagine how interesting it would be to accomodate a high level of golfer playing that course by offering them different scorecards as a par 72, 71 or even a par 70 without doing a single thing to the architecture of the course!

That only affects the three par fives, #'s 5, 7, and # 18 which I don't feel would be a good par 4.

Holes such as # 14 were recently lengthened and the alteration reproduces the intended value of the tee shot without compromising any architectural features.

# 8 could use additional added length to insure that the "bottle neck" feature in the fairway plays as CBM intended.

With respect to # 18 tee, we know that the hole was there before the road and gates.  If you were constructing that road and entrance gate today, is there any doubt that you would move it further north, allowing the tee on # 18 to be moved back without conflicting with those structures ?[/color]

Mike and Matt,

I'm sorry I missed the event, but with my hip out, two long drives and my intolerance to cold, I think I made the right call.
Besides, with TEPaul's absence, George Bahto and I had no one to correct regarding architecture, in theory and in practice.

I'm glad you fellows had a nice day.
NGLA is special.

[Bill_McBride]

That's the first picture I've ever seen of the Redan at NGLA.  With the spectacular skyline green and backdrop of the Sound, it beats North Berwick handily for style points.  Is the green surface as steep as that at NB?  The easiest pars at NB were made by going over the green and chipping straight back uphill.  No big dropoff.  What's it like behind NGLA's Redan?