[TEPaul]

"Even on the first hole at Pine Valley, when the pin is located in the far back of the green, the prudent play, which you wouldn't be aware of, is to attack the middle of the green and let the ball feed back to the pin."

Patrick of Mucci:

Now you're going to tell me how to play PVGC?? I'll tell you what the prudent play is on the 1st hole at PVGC, probably in either stroke play qualifiying or match play. Attack the approach in front of the green and let the ball filter onto the front at best. Don't even think about attacking the middle of the green and the chances are better for you over time that you will best even a good player who attacks any part of that green too aggressively!! Believe me I know! The only time I remember my strategy, done correctly, backfiring on me was one time against the great Canadian player Gary Cowan who in my experience was about the most inveterately aggressive player I ever saw. I did just what I said and wanted to do and to my amazement he went right after a pin about 5 steps from the very end of the green---flew it all the way back there and stuck the ball in there about a foot, which of course being the consummate gentleman I am, I gave to him. Consequently, I was forced to get more aggressive with my strategically placed 110 foot birdie putt than I really wanted to. I almost made it but it kept on trickling and dribbled off the back and clear off into oblivion at which point I simply marched straight for the 2nd tee.

Don't you dare tell me how to play PVGC or it's first hole you big booby! I've spent years peering over the edges of that green at players like you down below on either side fussing and fretting around trying to figure out if it's even possible to get their ball somewhere back on that green after missing it with an approach shot to even the middle of that green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

The funny thing is, the first time I ever played Pine Valley, the pin was all the way back.  I asked the caddy how far I was to the pin and he told me.  I hit it about 3 feet from the hole and was really proud of the shot.

But, when I got up on the green, and walked back to the pin, and saw what was to my left, right and long, I got scared, realizing that I had just escaped from what could have been one of those disastrous, legendary phone number scores you hear about, and mine would have been on the first hole and ruined what turned out to be a very good round.

Ignorance can be bliss.

But, this brings up another interesting point.

In medal play, there is no doubt that you and I think alike about the play of the hole, which also indicates that this is one of the few times you understand the situation and have drawn the proper conclusion.  

But, ask yourself this question.

Would you play the hole the same way if your opponent, who hit first, hit it 2 feet from the hole ?

Now ask yourself, if it was the 19th hole, the potentially deciding hole in the match, and he hit it in there 2 feet, would you play it the same way ?

[TEPaul]

"Ignorance can be bliss."

Patrick:

I'm so happy you finally said that after all these years. That's pretty much the final story of the way you look at all golf architecture, don't you think?


"But, ask yourself this question.
Would you play the hole the same way if your opponent, who hit first, hit it 2 feet from the hole?"

Patrick:

You gotta understand something pal. In my entire 20 years of competitive golf not a single time in my recollection did any opponent of mine EVER hit first on an approach shot to a par 4!!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Are you saying that you're standing too close to the ball ......... after you hit it ?

[TEPaul]

Could you be a bit more clear about that Pat. I know I've always been short off the tee, but I'm just trying to figure out if I'm sort of dense too or if you really are a great big booby. Whatever you do with yourself, please try not to become as totally inscrutable as redanman is. There's not a single solitary redeeming thing anyone could possibly say for some of his posts on this website. Even a hopeless village idiot could do better posting on here than he does!  

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

The "D" green at The Sheep Ranch is pretty good from all angles; of course, it was designed to be played from all different angles!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I don't know how I overlooked it, but I should have asked those that have played or designed those specialty courses like the Sheep Ranch and others, where a liimited number of greens are played to from a variety of angles, which green configurations best accomodate shots from multiple angles.

What was the key in designing the "D" green

TEPaul,

I prefered the sciences, where facts were paramount, and conclusions finite.

But, could you recap for us the six years you spent in kindergarten and the first grade ?  

[TEPaul]

Pat:

"paramount and "finite"?? Try not to use words and concepts that are over your head. Stick to thoughts and concepts like "flat or "not flat"---anything beyond that would have to be considered "dangerous mental overload"!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You're right, I'll try to use words with but one syllable, so that I don't confuse you.

[TEPaul]

Pat, frankly using one syllable words would be a big help to you. I hate to see you wrestling with phrases like 'similar but not congruent'. You're likely to fall down and hurt yourself using words and concepts like that. If someone asks me; "How's Pat?" I don't want to have to say; "He fell down and badly hurt his back and his head trying to use 'congruent'.

To tell you the truth, Pat, I think you should try to forget about this 360 degree idea too---I think it's making you dizzy!

[Tom_Doak]

Pat,

The "D" green is roughly in the middle of the property.  It is 440 yards from the starting point by "I", and 180-200 yards from "C" in the opposite direction, so it was designed to accept a long approach shot.  It tilts toward "C", with a couple of big but soft tiers, but you can play a running shot from "I".  

It's also a good 300-yard par 4 from "E", since you have to hit the ball in the right part of the green to have a birdie opportunity.

A green which will be played from multiple angles can't have too sharp a slope in one direction; internal contours are more successful.  Visibility is always going to be an issue from one direction or another.

Hazards eating into the edges of a large green are likely to be successful.  We haven't built many of those at The Sheep Ranch to date, because we didn't want the sand to blow out of them.

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