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A_Clay_Man

Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2004, 05:34:51 PM »
Other than aesthetics, this is a perfect example of why trees should be avoided as design elements. They are less permanent than the impermanance inherit.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 05:35:39 PM by Adam Clayman »

Mike_Golden

Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2004, 05:37:09 PM »
Lost in all of this talk about trees and protecting par against the best players in the world is how little that tree really comes into play for us hackers.  You need to be center or left of center off the tee to open up the green so hitting on the right side just brings the right bunkers into play on the approach shot. It's a very narrow green and in all the rounds I've played there over the past 30 years the only times I've been on in regulation are when I've hit it long and center to left of center.  Tillie was a master at this on the Black-there are so many shots that make you hit the drive (or second) to a specific area of the fairway (1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 12, 13, and 16 for sure) to have a good shot to the green it makes the magic of the Black all that more evident when you play it more than once.

Matt_Ward

Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2004, 06:22:42 PM »
Dave:

What is it with the legal mumbo jumbo -- "I never said you favored lengthening #1. I said you sound like all those members who want to protect their courses by lengthening them."

Huh???

Dave -- I'll clue you in -- I never "sound" like something because it wasn't me saying it. What mindless BS is that!

Clear your head will you. I never -- repeat after me -- implied or said that trees -- the one at BB or anywhere else for that matter -- have any meaningful purpose. Hello anybody home? I said the addition of the trees -- post Tillie -- turned the hole into something it should never have become. End of story.

Leave it to Dave -- to weasel a way to insert words into people's mouth's and then try to take the personfiication of Michael Jackson facelifts -- also known as Medinah into the equation. Dave -- when all-star golf courses are discussed Medinah is far from dripping off people's tongues.

Dave -- The OB on the rightside of #1 on BB was there for years. It was entirely appropriate IMHO for it to be there as I have already explained. All I suggested is that moving the OB closer to the right side of #1 is appropriate given the reward players can gain by hitting it in that direction and shortening the hole dramatically. Geeze, can you believe that -- Ward taking a stand against the long hitter getting too much of a liberty! Did you get that Dave? It's called risk and reward. A balance of the type I have mentioned is fair IMHO. I also have no issue with the bunkers alternative placed on the inside right edge if that's what is done provided they have some depth and extract an appropriate penalty.

I'm not "sacrificing" the quality of the hole to be simply difficult as you erroneously claim that I am.

EAF

Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2004, 08:06:31 PM »
I usually don't get in the middle of the debates here, but Mike's comment that hackers were not affected by the tree is completely wrong. The tree usually caused problems for at least one player in almost every group I played with (about 75 rounds there) through the years.

On the tee, players aim away from the tree and cause over compensation to the left rough or weeds. After a short drive, just onto the fairway, the tree blocked the direct line to the front of the green for a run-up 3 wood shot. I'll repeat my earlier post and say that the problems and decisions that resulted from being in the right rough near/ or behind the tree caused many double-bogies and higher on countless "hacker" scorecards. The more times the mid-handicap player (9-16 hncp.) like myself played BB #1, in all kinds of wind btw, the more we respected that tree's ability to screw up the start of your round.

I think that moving the OB stakes would ruin the hole and slow play down beyond belief. A nasty bunker would deter the long hitters and is the best solution. The death of the tree will make many "hackers" happy. The pros hit 3 woods off the first tee so they will find the elusive first fairway.

I'll still sleep in my car to play there anytime I'm back in New York!  

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2004, 08:39:05 PM »
Pards, BTW,  if there's anything on this site that's predictable, it's that the minute I bring up Medinah, you're going to use the word facelift or makeover.  Ladbrokes took that one off the board ions ago.   ;)

Can't speak for anyone else, but I know I'm getting a charge out of this discussion. Don't know yet if it's positive or negative....

Still waiting for Matt to answer my question: What's wrong with an easier starting hole? I've never played the Black, so am ignorant (and admit it!), but I wonder what's wrong with a hole that tempts the good player to blast away, at the price of missing into the hay (or into a new/old bunker)? Isn't that penalty enough, without an unnecessary OB? Isn't that how No. 1 works at Shinnecock? Doesn't everyone admire that hole? (Oops. That's several questions, now.)

Oh, and say: Whatever became of Ron Whitten? I was really looking forward to finishing that Tillinghast/Burbeck discussion...
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Phil_the_Author

Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2004, 07:33:47 AM »
Matt,

You are correct, the O/B removal happened recently. Its my understanding that when the stakes were removed for the 2002 Open they were simply never put back! This happened because of the preponderance of players who ignored them.

The reason they were there, and why they serve a necessarily usefull purpose, is to PROTECT the players on the Green Course.

When someone "veers" to the right off the first tee of the Black they will always play up the first hole of the Green course. This puts those on the green especially in the line of play. It also has the VERY undesirable effect of slowing play down on 2 courses - as if Bethpage needs that help!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 07:34:21 AM by Philip Young »

Mike_Golden

Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2004, 10:23:48 AM »
EAF,

I should have explained myself a little more-my point was that if you hit it right, tree or no tree, it's going to be difficult to reach the green in regulation because of the way the hole is set up.  I've hit it right there many times and always wound up playing short of the green to the left-the only place to have a decent shot to the green is center to left of the fairway.  Left of the fairway in the rough is death as well as that is usually very deep.

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2004, 03:41:12 PM »
Mike Golden:

Until your last post, I was itching to agree with EAF as I am a hacker myself who always had that Stupid Tree in the way from the fairway at 225-250 off the tee.

Since your last post, I have another question.  How was it that there was ever an opportunity NOT to be confronted by that Stupid Tree from the right side?  It was always right there for me.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2004, 05:06:02 PM »
Chipoat,

Although I am certain that mike will answer your question differently, From the Spring of 1936 when the course opened for play until the early Summer of 1938 there was no tree t the corner, or infact anywhere at all up the right side of the first fairway. There were 2 large bunkers that ran almost the entire length of the hole. These were removed & mature trees, including this one, were planted in the Summer of 1938.

So for at least that short period there was no "stupid tree" to deal with!
« Last Edit: November 04, 2004, 05:06:48 PM by Philip Young »

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2004, 05:17:17 PM »
Since the discussion has gone in that direction, I feel that I should provide a bit of information that most are unaware of. The course as originally designed by Tillinghast, underwent its first "renovation" after 1936 & was completed by September of 1938.

Among the changes made was a removal of the original 2 bunkers that ran nearly the entire length of the right side of the 1st hole, with only a gap of 10-15 yards between them at the corner. When these were removed, by Mr. Burbeck, mature trees of 10+ feet in height were planted. So the tree that is being removed was NEVER part of the original design. There is some talk about placing a bunker in the right rough past the turn because there was one originally.

Not to pump my up-coming Tilly biography, but the changes to Bethpage Black & the proof of what Tillinghast, Burbeck & Jones did with the course, including the photographic evidence of this, will be contained in i


Phil-

  Interesting.  I haven't been out there since late July, when I played BB last...
I saw somewhere, might be 'America's Linksland' or might be the aerial on the clubhouse wall of BSP from '36 or so, which showed no trees at that corner, but some pretty mean looking bunkers.  
I've always tried to fire straight down the right over the smallest tree, and I can usually get to the corner.  It may make the hole a little easier, who knows?  Anyone up for a trip on Tuesday?
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2004, 07:44:43 PM »
With apologies to Carlyle, is the aforementioned tree in either of these photos?



"... and I liked the guy ..."

Phil_the_Author

Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2004, 08:28:26 PM »
Doug,

The aerial that is on the clubhouse wall was taken in 1938, after all renovations were done. This is the only aerial that Bethpage knew existed and was the one that was supplied to Rees Jones for him to work off for his restoration/renovation prior to the Open.

In their book "Gleanings from the Wayside," Rick Wolffe & Bob Trebus, on page 154, actually came across another aerial, this one taken in 1935. They also had a copy of the Bethpage Developmental Plan of 1935, something that was always thought by those at Bethpage to be inaccurate. Almost no one ever realized that these two photos existed, and showed the significant differences to a course that everyone felt had been untouched from the beginning.

If you compare the aerial to the plan, you will find that all the bunkers and features of the 4 courses match, and that there are some remarkable differences when compared to the aerial taken just 3 years later. In fact, on the previous page, 152, in the upper left-hand corner there is a photograph of the September, 1938 Sam Snead, Jimmy Hines, Paul Runyon, & Al Brosch exhibition match. Notice the view down the first hole & you will see that the bunkers have been removed & very mature trees planted in their place.

Besides the 1st hole, you will see that the remarkable large waste bunker on #5 was not in the design nor was it built until later. There were NO bunkers at the top of the hill of the 6th fairway, and the POND that was planned to be in front of #18 and is labeled on the developmental plan (only seen when viewed in the blown-up one at Bethpage) and labelled as "drainage pond/winter skating rink" was NEVER put in. There were other subtle changes in this time frame.

The conclusion after seeing these is that this proves that Burbeck DIDN'T design the Black, because if he did, why these changes immediately after it opened and Tillinghast left? It also explains many of the unique aspects of Ron Whitten's incorrect argument that Burbeck designed the course(s) at Bethpage. This explains why his son remembers his father working on blueprints of the Black & why his wife could feel that he deserved some of the design credits. It also explains why he never claimed credit for the design, down to the day he died, as he knew he hadn't.

Did he do these changes in collaboration with Tillinghast? No one can say for certain at this moment. Did Tillinghast ever return to Bethpage after 1935? Well he did write an article about Bethpage, Burbeck and the Black from the perspective of one who had just seen it in person. He also was on Long Island during his PGA Course Consultation Tour in September of 1936, and may have consulted with Burbeck & given him guidance then. The real answer though is that we just don't know.

One thing is for certain, the changes made at this time DID IMPROVE the course and so some credit, if only in a small way, should be given to Burbeck for the work done. I believe that this credit is similar to what should be given to Craig Currier, the current superintendent. Craig has made some subtle additions, a front bunker left on #4 to restore where it originally was. The NEW 5th tee that he put in himself with the idea of adding some length for the 2002 Open. The work he was supposed to have started THIS WEEK on the par-three 14th, his design idea & approved by the USGA & Rees Jones during a tour of the Black on 10/28. (I had the privilege of riding along during this and I think it is going to be WELL received along with some other proposed changes with the Open in mind that are awaiting approval.)

I am hoping to be able to post a detailed discussion of the original changes to the course back in the 30's, some other changes made from 40-70, the renovation changes in the 80's, & finally all of the proposed suggested changes that will add over 150 yards, change one green complex & not involve any work at all from 15-18!

Mike Benham, the tree is the large maple at the right corner of the fairway where it turns. In the picture you can see a player walking past & just to the right of it.



« Last Edit: November 04, 2004, 08:33:17 PM by Philip Young »

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2004, 09:05:56 PM »
Craig has made some subtle additions, a front bunker left on #4 to restore where it originally was.


Phil-

The aerial, back by the restrooms, might be 1938...it's been a few months since I've been to BSP  :-[  

Haven't been playing well enough  :'(

Ok, that's where that bunker maybe 30-40 yds from the green to the left of the upper part of 4 fairway came from.  I saw that back in July and thought "where did that come from?".  

Do you think the bunker serves any purpose?  The hole isn't meant to be played as a two shotter--I always play a mid iron second up the right on line with the evergreens, to have a third shot of under 100 yds and more often than not looking right up the green.  

I really don't know where it would come into play--it's in the rough, it's not stopping errant shots from going further left.  

I just don't know...what is the purpose?

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Phil_the_Author

Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2004, 10:43:27 PM »
Doug,

Yes, that is a copy of the 1938 aerial. There is another one upstairs in Dave Catalano's office. The really interesting thing is that according to Rick Wolffe the 1935 aerial that they put in the book came from Bethpage, but they have no record of it whatsoever and can't find it.

Yes, the 4th hole is an example of a classic Tillinghast "three-shotter." Craig put the bunker in after he realized that the bunker complex in the left front of the green came further back. It does act as a catch for those second shots that fly a little too far up the left side. I know as I was in it just 2 weeks ago! I was convinced at that moment that it served no useful purpose whatsoever, but I imagine that was the original idea.  :o

« Last Edit: November 04, 2004, 10:45:14 PM by Philip Young »

Phil_the_Author

Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2004, 09:04:34 AM »
OOPS!!!!

You're right Redanman, it is Reminiscences.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2004, 09:05:24 AM by Philip Young »

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2004, 11:16:51 AM »
As a huge fan of the Black I am very sad to hear about the loss of this tree. Every time that I have stood on the first tee, about to begin a much anticipated round of golf, I have given very careful consideration to that tree. I'll miss it.

-Ted
« Last Edit: November 05, 2004, 11:24:30 AM by Ted Kramer »

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2004, 02:19:30 PM »
Phil,

Regarding Craig Currier's contributions, when you mention the NEW 5th tee, are you referring to the one used for the 2002 Open or the one they just created within the last year or two that stretches the hole to 470+ and brings the cross-bunker very much back into play?

In addition, what are the plans for the 14th?  I know they had tinkered with the idea of moving the tee back across the the other side of the path, but I believe the idea was scrapped because they would then have to lower the existing tee to create sight lines to the green.  Is the new change something similar?

Finally, regarding the aforementioned tree...  I can't tell you how many rounds that tree derailed for me.  There is nothing worse than dreaming of playing the Black, waiting out in your car, getting to the first tee on a crisp morning, and pushing your tee shot in the right rough on the 1st.  Every ounce of you wants to thread the needle and try to somehow cut that corner and get the ball by the green (that flag looks so close!) but it requires a super accurate, low curving shot out of deep rough.  For most guys I know its an ego thing - they didn't go through hell getting on the Black to pull out the sand wedge to lay up on the first hole in full view of the 50 people watching from the first tee.  However, it is the prudent thing to do and I have made 4 going that route while making 8+ trying to battle that Maple.  There is no worse feeling on The Black than walking off the 1st with an 8 knowing the course only gets harder from there.

I'm not a big fan of pinching in the OB on the right but the Sadist in me will miss that Maple.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Death of a tree.
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2004, 03:14:26 PM »
Dear Sadist, errr.... Geoffrey,

The tee I am referring to is the one created last year.

The 14th hole has 4 changes that are being discussed, 3 that are being done to it now:

1- Extend the hole with a new back tee. Still under discussion. The problem is one of economics as it will cost a great deal of money to create a tee box after clearing out a number of trees on the other side of the road.

2- Put in a new bunker on the front left-side of the green. This will allow for pinching in the...

3- New green tongue-like extension that will extend the front left corner of the green closer to the tee. It will provide for some very dramatic pin positions, especially when the green is up to Open speeds. What will also provide some dramatic new pin positions will be...

4- A new small second-tier extension to the back-right portion of the green. The new green area will wrap-around the back side of the right hand bunker and will create some absolutely fabulous pin locations.

I believe that the 2 changes to the green will eliminate the need for a new back tee. This hole played from 140-170 yards will become one of the great par-threes (IMHO).

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